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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    The fact remains that Biblically Jesus cannot be GOD and be with God as per John 1:1-2.
    No, John 1:1-2 explicitly claims that Jesus IS God. John 1:1-2 is saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming that it is saying.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
      The fact remains that Biblically Jesus cannot be GOD and be with God as per John 1:1-2.
      Are you trying to make Muslims look bad?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Are you trying to make Muslims look bad?
        They don't need any help with that.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          They don't need any help with that.
          My Muslim coworker is a decent fellow.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            My Muslim coworker is a decent fellow.
            Of course there is a difference between Muslims and Islam itself

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              No, John 1:1-2 explicitly claims that Jesus IS God. John 1:1-2 is saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming that it is saying.
              Calling a person THEOS (God in Greek) or ELOHIM (God in Hebrew) in the Bible is common as in Ps. 82:6 where God said to the Jews “‘You are “ELOHIM”; you are all sons of the Most High."

              The fact remains that Jesus CANNOT be God and be with God in John 1:1-2 because this requires two Gods.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                Calling a person THEOS (God in Greek) or ELOHIM (God in Hebrew) in the Bible is common as in Ps. 82:6 where God said to the Jews “‘You are “ELOHIM”; you are all sons of the Most High."
                In John 1:1 no person is mentioned but rather a thing, namely "the Word." What this verse is saying is as follows , the proper translation -- "In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was facing God, and the Torah was a divine thing."

                Nothing about a person named Jesus here .


                The fact remains that Jesus CANNOT be God and be with God in John 1:1-2 because this requires two Gods.
                +1.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                  In John 1:1 no person is mentioned but rather a thing, namely "the Word." What this verse is saying is as follows , the proper translation -- "In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was facing God, and the Torah was a divine thing."

                  Nothing about a person named Jesus here .
                  John explicitly identifies the Word with Jesus in John 1:14 so your idiosyncratic interpretation doesn't work here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                    Calling a person THEOS (God in Greek) or ELOHIM (God in Hebrew) in the Bible is common as in Ps. 82:6 where God said to the Jews “‘You are “ELOHIM”; you are all sons of the Most High."

                    The fact remains that Jesus CANNOT be God and be with God in John 1:1-2 because this requires two Gods.
                    You should spend your time trying to defend Islam.

                    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...215#post722215

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                      Calling a person THEOS (God in Greek) or ELOHIM (God in Hebrew) in the Bible is common as in Ps. 82:6 where God said to the Jews “‘You are “ELOHIM”; you are all sons of the Most High."

                      The fact remains that Jesus CANNOT be God and be with God in John 1:1-2 because this requires two Gods.
                      John is using God in two different senses in John 1:1-2. When he writes "the Word was with God" in verse 1 he's using God as a name, or a title, for the Father. When he writes the Word was God he's using it to tell us what kind of nature the Word had. So he's saying that the Word has been with the Father from the very beginning, in eternity and that the Word was of the same divine nature as the Father.

                      Scripture Verse: John 1:1-2 ESV, the parts in () are my own additions.


                      1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (in nature). 2 He was in the beginning with God.

                      © Copyright Original Source





                      The fact remains that you have not demonstrated that Jesus cannot be God and be with God in John 1:1-2 without requiring two Gods.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        John explicitly identifies the Word with Jesus in John 1:14 so your idiosyncratic interpretation doesn't work here.
                        That's like saying the dust of the earth in Gen. 2:7 is "directly identified" with Adam. In John 1:14 "the Word made flesh" (i.e. the Word become a human being) is Jesus, "the Word" is NOT Jesus.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          That's like saying the dust of the earth in Gen. 2:7 is "directly identified" with Adam. In John 1:14 "the Word made flesh" (i.e. the Word become a human being) is Jesus, "the Word" is NOT Jesus.
                          John 1:14 is saying the Word became (or was made) flesh, not "the Word made flesh". It's saying that the Word identified as divine being in John 1:1 became the human being known as Jesus. There's no need to force an awkward interpretation like you're trying to do unless you're trying to push some kind of unitarian theology that stands in direct opposition to the text itself.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            John 1:14 is saying the Word became (or was made) flesh, not "the Word made flesh". It's saying that the Word identified as divine being in John 1:1 became the human being known as Jesus. There's no need to force an awkward interpretation like you're trying to do unless you're trying to push some kind of unitarian theology that stands in direct opposition to the text itself.
                            Correct, "made flesh" (σὰρξ ἐγένετο) means "became a human being," σὰρξ is a synecdoche . So the verse is saying that "the Word became a human being," and this is the being who is called Jesus.

                            The grammar (and context) of this verse discounts the Trinitarian interpretation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              John is using God in two different senses in John 1:1-2. When he writes "the Word was with God" in verse 1 he's using God as a name, or a title, for the Father. When he writes the Word was God he's using it to tell us what kind of nature the Word had. So he's saying that the Word has been with the Father from the very beginning, in eternity and that the Word was of the same divine nature as the Father.

                              Scripture Verse: John 1:1-2 ESV, the parts in () are my own additions.


                              1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (in nature). 2 He was in the beginning with God.

                              © Copyright Original Source





                              The fact remains that you have not demonstrated that Jesus cannot be God and be with God in John 1:1-2 without requiring two Gods.
                              In John 20:28 is ὁ θεός "a name, or a title, for the Father" or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                                Correct, "made flesh" (σὰρξ ἐγένετο) means "became a human being," σὰρξ is a synecdoche . So the verse is saying that "the Word became a human being," and this is the being who is called Jesus.

                                The grammar (and context) of this verse discounts the Trinitarian interpretation.
                                The Word was clearly a personal being before becoming human though, and did not become another person after becoming human, so it is still proper to call Jesus the Word. The Trinitarian interpretation has absolutely no problems with this verse.

                                Comment

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