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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Well, at least with your level of crazy, we don't have to worry about you sucking anyone else in, because nobody can follow your extreme nuttery.
    In calling Lazarus from the grave Jesus identifies himself with him in giving his life for him.
    Lazarus becoming "the beloved disciple" who is at Jesus' breast like Jesus at the breast of the father.

    Same principle is expressed in Mark 3:1-6, where Jesus identifies himself with the man with the withered hand. v.3 Ἔγειρε εἰς τὸ μέσον. "stand up in the middle") (KJV omits)

    v. 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?”

    v.5 “Stretch forth your hand.” --Ἔκτεινον τὴν χεῖρα - refers to Genesis 3:22 -- LXX καὶ νῦν μήποτε ἐκτείνῃ τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λάβῃ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ φάγῃ καὶ ζήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα


    v. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
      In calling Lazarus from the grave Jesus identifies himself with him in giving his life for him.
      Lazarus becoming "the beloved disciple" who is at Jesus' breast like Jesus at the breast of the father.

      Same principle is expressed in Mark 3:1-6, where Jesus identifies himself with the man with the withered hand. v.3 Ἔγειρε εἰς τὸ μέσον. "stand up in the middle") (KJV omits)

      v. 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?”

      v.5 “Stretch forth your hand.” --Ἔκτεινον τὴν χεῖρα - refers to Genesis 3:22 -- LXX καὶ νῦν μήποτε ἐκτείνῃ τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λάβῃ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ φάγῃ καὶ ζήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα


      v. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.
      P7m6Ubt.jpg

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      • #33
        If Jesus was God then Mary was the mother of God.

        Why don't you venerate her as such?

        https://www.thoughtco.com/ave-maria-...slation-724041

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        • #34
          Are you accusing God of incest?
          When I Survey....

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Faber View Post
            Are you accusing God of incest?
            No.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              But "before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me." so Jesus is not a God then. Yet John 1 says he is. If Jesus is a God and God said that no Gods would be formed before or after him, then Jesus must be a false God? Why do you follow a false God, BU?
              Where in John 1 does it say Jesus is god (with a small "g") let alone God !?

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              • #37
                Uh...

                John 1 Modern English Version (MEV)
                The Word Became Flesh

                1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were created through Him, and without Him nothing was created that was created. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. 5 The light shines in darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.

                6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 This man came as a witness in order to testify concerning the Light, that all men through Him might believe. 8 He was not this Light, but was sent in order to testify concerning the Light.

                9 The true Light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was created through Him, yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. 12 Yet to all who received Him, He gave the power to become sons of God, to those who believed in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

                14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, the glory as the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                  Where in John 1 does it say Jesus is god (with a small "g") let alone God !?
                  Pretty much the whole chapter is about Jesus being God. Christian Bookworm quotes some of the relative passages. It calls him God, says he created everything.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Pretty much the whole chapter is about Jesus being God. Christian Bookworm quotes some of the relative passages. It calls him God, says he created everything.
                    But you cannot point to a single verse where Jesus is called “God.”

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                      But you cannot point to a single verse where Jesus is called “God.”


                      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him [a]was not anything made that hath been made. ...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us

                      1. The Word was God.
                      2. The Word made flesh was Jesus.

                      Therefore Jesus is God.

                      Other places Jesus is called God:


                      Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


                      John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" [uses the name of God]

                      John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

                      2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

                      Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

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                      • #41
                        That is quite an interesting observation regarding Thomas and Jesus. I've read through the responses here and many offer interesting perspectives on the nature and understanding of the passage.

                        I tend to understand this within the nature and understanding of what Thomas may have actually referred to. This is consistent with what John reveals about the nature of who Christ is, and the nature of Christ with the Father. When Thomas said Lord and God (as pointed out in other comments), I believe he was referring to a more Jewish perspective. This is based on the fact that John records Christ as saying to the Pharisees "Before Abraham was I AM" and their response in renting their clothes and picking up stones for blasphemy. Reason - Christ took upon himself the name of "I AM". Most students of the scriptures agree that Christ is YHWH of the Old Testament. Thomas expression and response very well be the recognition that Jesus was not only his (Thomas and the disciples) Lord, that Christ was also his (Thomas's and the other Disciples) God - or Yahweh - Yeshua.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post


                          John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" [uses the name of God]
                          "I AM" (Ἐγώ εἰμι) is not the name of God.

                          It's based on a false translation of Exodus 3:14 (of King James Perversion)


                          And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

                          Hebrew: "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" = I will be what I will be

                          LXX translated ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν = I am the one who is

                          Hebrew "ehyeh sh'lachani aleichem" = 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.

                          LXX ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς = the one who is has sent me unto you

                          When God made his name known on mount Sinai he said:

                          "anochi hashem eloheicha, etc."

                          "anochi" = I am = ἐγώ εἰμι

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                          • #43
                            John 8:58 is about Abram becoming Abraham

                            Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

                            After LXX Genesis 17:5,

                            καὶ οὐ κληθήσεται ἔτι τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβραμ ἀλλ' ἔσται τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβρααμ ὅτι πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε


                            γενέσθαι is is aorist middle infinitive of γίνομαι = to become, to happen.

                            it has 37 occurences in the NT

                            https://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

                            none of which denoting a birth (be it maybe in figurative sense)

                            So also with this KJV is very misleading

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                              John 8:58 is about Abram becoming Abraham

                              Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

                              After LXX Genesis 17:5,

                              καὶ οὐ κληθήσεται ἔτι τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβραμ ἀλλ' ἔσται τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβρααμ ὅτι πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε


                              γενέσθαι is is aorist middle infinitive of γίνομαι = to become, to happen.

                              it has 37 occurences in the NT

                              https://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

                              none of which denoting a birth (be it maybe in figurative sense)

                              So also with this KJV is very misleading
                              Before Abraham genesthai (came to be, happened, occurred), I am. Of course, "was born" sort of covers that when it refers to someone that lived - unless the claim is being advanced that Abraham came to be without undergoing the usual procedures.
                              (Though in truth, saying "I am" doesn't reflect any claim to be God or even a god.) Paul, Peter, and Judas of the field that was bought fame: all of them said "ego eimi" at one time or another.

                              And yes - the name that Moses was told to identify God by was in Koine Greek (LXX) "ho oen" ο ων, not "ego eimi." God said " tell them that O ΩΝ sent you."
                              Last edited by tabibito; 02-20-2019, 06:34 AM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Before Abraham genesthai (came to be, happened, occurred), I am. Of course, "was born" sort of covers that when it refers to someone that lived - unless the claim is being advanced that Abraham came to be without undergoing the usual procedures.

                                It's not about the birth of Abram somehwere in Mesopotamia, but about his namechange. Abram got the letter "hey" added to his name

                                cf. Rashi on Genesis 12:2, "I will aggrandize your name"

                                https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi=true

                                And this is the meaning of and I will aggrandize your name. I will add a letter to your name, for until now, your name was אַבְרָם. From now on [your name will be] אַבְרָהָם, and אַבְרָהָם equals 248, corresponding to a person’s limbs
                                Rashi on Genesis 15:5, And He took him outside, and He said, "Please look heavenward and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So will be your seed."

                                https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi=true

                                according to its midrashic interpretation, He said to him,“Go out of your astrology,” for you have seen in the signs of the zodiac that you are not destined to have a son. Indeed, Abram will have no son, but Abraham will have a son. Similarly, Sarai will not give birth, but Sarah will give birth. I will give you another name, and your destiny will change
                                Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 02-20-2019, 12:01 PM.

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