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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

  1. #41
    tWebber TimothyRB's Avatar
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    That is quite an interesting observation regarding Thomas and Jesus. I've read through the responses here and many offer interesting perspectives on the nature and understanding of the passage.

    I tend to understand this within the nature and understanding of what Thomas may have actually referred to. This is consistent with what John reveals about the nature of who Christ is, and the nature of Christ with the Father. When Thomas said Lord and God (as pointed out in other comments), I believe he was referring to a more Jewish perspective. This is based on the fact that John records Christ as saying to the Pharisees "Before Abraham was I AM" and their response in renting their clothes and picking up stones for blasphemy. Reason - Christ took upon himself the name of "I AM". Most students of the scriptures agree that Christ is YHWH of the Old Testament. Thomas expression and response very well be the recognition that Jesus was not only his (Thomas and the disciples) Lord, that Christ was also his (Thomas's and the other Disciples) God - or Yahweh - Yeshua.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post


    John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" [uses the name of God]
    "I AM" (Ἐγώ εἰμι) is not the name of God.

    It's based on a false translation of Exodus 3:14 (of King James Perversion)


    And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

    Hebrew: "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" = I will be what I will be

    LXX translated ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν = I am the one who is

    Hebrew "ehyeh sh'lachani aleichem" = 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.

    LXX ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς = the one who is has sent me unto you

    When God made his name known on mount Sinai he said:

    "anochi hashem eloheicha, etc."

    "anochi" = I am = ἐγώ εἰμι

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    John 8:58 is about Abram becoming Abraham

    Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

    After LXX Genesis 17:5,

    καὶ οὐ κληθήσεται ἔτι τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβραμ ἀλλ' ἔσται τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβρααμ ὅτι πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε


    γενέσθαι is is aorist middle infinitive of γίνομαι = to become, to happen.

    it has 37 occurences in the NT

    https://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

    none of which denoting a birth (be it maybe in figurative sense)

    So also with this KJV is very misleading

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    John 8:58 is about Abram becoming Abraham

    Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

    After LXX Genesis 17:5,

    καὶ οὐ κληθήσεται ἔτι τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβραμ ἀλλ' ἔσται τὸ ὄνομά σου Aβρααμ ὅτι πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε


    γενέσθαι is is aorist middle infinitive of γίνομαι = to become, to happen.

    it has 37 occurences in the NT

    https://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

    none of which denoting a birth (be it maybe in figurative sense)

    So also with this KJV is very misleading
    Before Abraham genesthai (came to be, happened, occurred), I am. Of course, "was born" sort of covers that when it refers to someone that lived - unless the claim is being advanced that Abraham came to be without undergoing the usual procedures.
    (Though in truth, saying "I am" doesn't reflect any claim to be God or even a god.) Paul, Peter, and Judas of the field that was bought fame: all of them said "ego eimi" at one time or another.

    And yes - the name that Moses was told to identify God by was in Koine Greek (LXX) "ho oen" ο ων, not "ego eimi." God said " tell them that O ΩΝ sent you."
    Last edited by tabibito; 02-20-2019 at 05:34 AM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Before Abraham genesthai (came to be, happened, occurred), I am. Of course, "was born" sort of covers that when it refers to someone that lived - unless the claim is being advanced that Abraham came to be without undergoing the usual procedures.

    It's not about the birth of Abram somehwere in Mesopotamia, but about his namechange. Abram got the letter "hey" added to his name

    cf. Rashi on Genesis 12:2, "I will aggrandize your name"

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi=true

    And this is the meaning of and I will aggrandize your name. I will add a letter to your name, for until now, your name was אַבְרָם. From now on [your name will be] אַבְרָהָם, and אַבְרָהָם equals 248, corresponding to a person’s limbs
    Rashi on Genesis 15:5, And He took him outside, and He said, "Please look heavenward and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So will be your seed."

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi=true

    according to its midrashic interpretation, He said to him,“Go out of your astrology,” for you have seen in the signs of the zodiac that you are not destined to have a son. Indeed, Abram will have no son, but Abraham will have a son. Similarly, Sarai will not give birth, but Sarah will give birth. I will give you another name, and your destiny will change
    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 02-20-2019 at 11:01 AM.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    It's not about the birth of Abram somehwere in Mesopotamia, but about his namechange.
    Even if that was so (which seems wholly unlikely) - Jesus was claiming to pre-exist Abraham. Of course, that claim does not of itself establish Jesus as God, but it does declare his continuing existence long before Jesus of Nazareth came to be.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Even if that was so (which seems wholly unlikely) - Jesus was claiming to pre-exist Abraham. Of course, that claim does not of itself establish Jesus as God, but it does declare his continuing existence long before Jesus of Nazareth came to be.
    There are two verbs in the sentence, γίνομαι = to become and εἶναι = to be

    Like also in John 1:1.14 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (...) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

    "to become" seems to denote a process in time, while "to be" seems to denote something that is (ever)lasting.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    There are two verbs in the sentence, γίνομαι = to become and εἶναι = to be

    Like also in John 1:1.14 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (...) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

    "to become" seems to denote a process in time, while "to be" seems to denote something that is (ever)lasting.
    ην is Koine Greek imperfect tense of ειναι (infinitive**) of ειμι (present, active, indicative, first person, singular: "am") - the English equivalent being past progressive/imperfect tense.
    ην = (technically) "was being."

    ** ah - finally is revealed how "everlasting" comes to be in the picture . NO. The grammatical infinitive has nothing to do with being eternal.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    There are two verbs in the sentence, γίνομαι = to become and εἶναι = to be

    Like also in John 1:1.14 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (...) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

    "to become" seems to denote a process in time, while "to be" seems to denote something that is (ever)lasting.
    That's an odd thing to say, especially underlined above. Look at following example for instance --

    καὶ ἦν ἐκεῖ ἕως τῆς τελευτῆς Ἡρῴδου· ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος Ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐκάλεσα τὸν υἱόν μου.
    Matt. 2:15

    He was there for a specific period of time, and not for "everlasting."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post


    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him [a]was not anything made that hath been made. ...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us

    1. The Word was God.
    2. The Word made flesh was Jesus.

    Therefore Jesus is God.

    Other places Jesus is called God:


    Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


    John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" [uses the name of God]

    John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

    Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
    Notice though that the text says the Word was a divine something , not that Jesus was God. Big difference. The Word prior to becoming flesh (i.e. a human being) is not Jesus. Remember, the Jesus of the bible is a human being. We have to be careful to not add into what Scripture really says.

    Also, it's kind of nonsensical to say that someone was God, we say someone is God (especially if he is the God of the Bible).
    Last edited by Unitarian101; Yesterday at 07:14 PM.

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