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Thread: Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human?

  1. #41
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Jesus said:-
    John 20:17
    Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

    Jesus has a God!!
    BU
    Why do you keep ignoring the verses I posted and just try to find a counter example instead? Are you claiming that the rest of the bible is lying then? Do you deny that Thomas called Jesus his God? That Col 1:16 says all things were made by him? That Peter called him God?

    Do you think that those verses are wrong? I have no problem with John 20:17 since Jesus is talking about the Father as a man. That fits with the Trinitarian view. In fact such verses are why we do have a Trinitarian view. The bible says that Jesus created everything, It also says the Holy Spirit created and that the Father Created. Yet in the Old testament it says that Jehovah created by himself with no help and there is no other God. So we have three persons who are the Creator, but only One God. The conclusion is that there is a Trinity: One God revealed as three distinct persons.

    The only one having trouble believing and reconciling all of the verses in the bible as true seems to be you. You just ignore the ones that prove you wrong and cling to ones that you think prove you right, but they don't.

    Wake up.

  2. Amen Christianbookworm, Chrawnus, LostSheep amen'd this post.
  3. #42
    tWebber
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    Jesus' own word are more than enough for any Christian to make a point about Christian teachings .
    That's my drop of point as a Christian.
    BU

  4. #43
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Jesus' own word are more than enough for any Christian to make a point about Christian teachings .
    That's my drop of point as a Christian.
    BU
    A doubtful claim, but it may be true.

    You miss a few critical points in your assessment.
    1/ Man is triune, having a body, a soul, and a spirit; and man is made in the image and likeness of God. This fact cannot perhaps make the nature of the trinity understandable, but it certainly makes it possible to appreciate the nature of the trinity.
    2/ Jesus, the man, referred to the Father as his god. That would make the father his superior; and a man's spirit is superior to both his body and his soul.
    3/ The Word (in the Targums, the memra) is equal with God, is with God, and is God. The claim that the statement "theos en ho logos θεος ην ο λογοσ" CAN indicate that the logos is A god* is true on the strict analysis of grammar for the text in isolation from the surrounding context. The claim that it does or must mean the logos is A god is false for the context, which shows that the logos is the creator.
    4/ Jesus spoke of times prior to his incarnation as a man. On some of those occasions, it is clear that he, prior to his incarnation as a man, was God. That he clearly existed prior to his incarnation as a man is also made clear.

    * theos en ho ares - "Aries (Mars) was a god" is a valid statement - it would mean "Aries is A god."
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  5. #44
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    A doubtful claim, but it may be true.

    You miss a few critical points in your assessment.
    1/ Man is triune, having a body, a soul, and a spirit; and man is made in the image and likeness of God. This fact cannot perhaps make the nature of the trinity understandable, but it certainly makes it possible to appreciate the nature of the trinity.
    2/ Jesus, the man, referred to the Father as his god. That would make the father his superior; and a man's spirit is superior to both his body and his soul.
    3/ The Word (in the Targums, the memra) is equal with God, is with God, and is God. The claim that the statement "theos en ho logos θεος ην ο λογοσ" CAN indicate that the logos is A god* is true on the strict analysis of grammar for the text in isolation from the surrounding context. The claim that it does or must mean the logos is A god is false for the context, which shows that the logos is the creator.
    4/ Jesus spoke of times prior to his incarnation as a man. On some of those occasions, it is c
    lear that he, prior to his incarnation as a man, was God. That he clearly existed prior to his incarnation as a man is also made clear.

    * theos en ho ares - "Aries (Mars) was a god" is a valid statement - it would mean "Aries is A god."
    In John 1:1-3 "ho theos" is not what "ho logos" was, he was "theos" less "ho" thus not "The God" but "god" .
    BU

  6. #45
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Jesus' own word are more than enough for any Christian to make a point about Christian teachings .
    That's my drop of point as a Christian.
    BU
    So you don't trust Paul as a prime first century interpreter (and apostle) who would be more trustworthy and authentic than anyone in subsequent generations?

    Are you rejecting what Paul has revealed to us about Christ Jesus?

    Is your understanding of the Greek surpassing the men of God in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, many who spoke Greek as a first language?

    How do you counter the debates that went on in those early years? How have you solved the issues better than they?

  7. Amen LostSheep amen'd this post.
  8. #46
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    So you don't trust Paul as a prime first century interpreter (and apostle) who would be more trustworthy and authentic than anyone in subsequent generations?

    Are you rejecting what Paul has revealed to us about Christ Jesus?

    Is your understanding of the Greek surpassing the men of God in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, many who spoke Greek as a first language?

    How do you counter the debates that went on in those early years? How have you solved the issues better than they?

    Paul only supports what Christ was and said.
    BU

  9. #47
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    BU, I urge you to open your eyes and confront the evidence we are presenting. You obviously recognize that we have a point here, which is why you keep avoiding our points and trying to talk around what we present by presenting what you think is a counter verse. You know all of the bible is true, not just one verse that you happen to choose at random that matches your own view. It all has to reconcile. You can't counter a verse that says Jesus is God by posting a verse that says he is a man. They both have to be true. You have to reconcile both and not ignore them.

  10. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  11. #48
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    BU, I urge you to open your eyes and confront the evidence we are presenting. You obviously recognize that we have a point here, which is why you keep avoiding our points and trying to talk around what we present by presenting what you think is a counter verse. You know all of the bible is true, not just one verse that you happen to choose at random that matches your own view. It all has to reconcile. You can't counter a verse that says Jesus is God by posting a verse that says he is a man. They both have to be true. You have to reconcile both and not ignore them.
    Jesus is just as you say, god and man, one in heaven and one on earth.
    We have things in common.
    Jesus is a divine being (a deity) just not an Almighty one.
    BU

  12. #49
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Jesus is just as you say, god and man, one in heaven and one on earth.
    We have things in common.
    Jesus is a divine being (a deity) just not an Almighty one.
    BU
    How do you reconcile that with God saying he is the only God, there is no other besides him? That no other god was formed before or after him?

  13. Amen Cerebrum123, 37818 amen'd this post.
  14. #50
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    Good point Sparko

    Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah said: “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.”

    [B] The point is that Jehovah had no predecessor, that no god existed before him[/B], for he is eternal. There will be no god with the same likeness after Jehovah because he will always exist and will have no successors as the Supreme Sovereign. Yet, Jehovah did produce others that he himself called gods, as an example the Scriptures show by saying concerning certain humans: “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Surely you will die just as men do; and like any one of the princes you will fall!’” (Psalm 82:6,*7) Similarly, the Word was a god created by Jehovah, but that did not make Jesus equal to Almighty God at any time.

    The woed "god" can also be used in a generic sence for a divine being like an angel. It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10:-

    Philippians 2:6
    who, although he was existing in God’s form, . . .

    At Psalm 8:5, for example, we read: “You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones.” (Hebrew,*’elohimʹ; “a god,” New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible) The Greek Septuagint Version renders ’elo·himʹ here as “angels.” The Jewish translators of this version saw no conflict with monotheism in applying the term for God to created spirit persons.

    As a few examples.
    Hope this helps.
    BU

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