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Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I don't know that I'd go that far. We have a propensity toward sin, not a predestination to sin.
    It must be a pretty strong propensity in that case, because I don't think there's a single human being yet (apart from Christ of course, but then I don't think He was born with a propensity to sin in the first place) who has been able to keep themselves from sinning. We might not be literally predestined to sin, but I'm not sure a universe where we were predestined to sin would look very different from the current one.

    Or to put it another way; ISTM like a sinless human(with Christ as the obvious exception) after the fall is nothing more than theoretical curiosity, and will continue to be so until Christ returns and renews Creation.
    Last edited by JonathanL; 09-12-2017, 02:48 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      Or to put it another way; ISTM like a sinless human(with Christ as the obvious exception) after the fall is nothing more than theoretical curiosity, and will continue to be so until Christ returns and renews Creation.
      Yes, we are born sinners, and we sin because we are sinners.

      Surely I was sinful at birth,
      sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Yes, we are born sinners, and we sin because we are sinners.

        Surely I was sinful at birth,
        sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)

        Blessings,
        Lee
        Too often sin is considered just the actions that come from our fallen nature. True sin is what makes us act improperly.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human, instead of God-man?

          Since Jesus Christ was sinless wouldn't He be an appropriate, acceptable and legal ransom?

          I've encountered two Unitarians who claim they are saved by the sinless man, Jesus, and Jesus did not have to be the incarnate Word of God in order to save them.

          What do you guys think?

          Thank you.
          I'm inclined to think not.

          First, even focusing in on a ransom or substitutionary element, one could (maybe) make the case that the life of one sinless man could substitute for, or ransom, the life of one sinner. One would have a much harder time - as these Unitarians must - making the case that the life of one sinless man (but a mere, solitary man nevertheless) would be "an appropriate, acceptable, and legal ransom" for upwards of a billion sinners (or more, in potentiality). Certainly, it doesn't seem very plausible.

          But second, the Unitarians are presuming a very 'pared-down' version of salvation, which is drastically more than a payment for due punishment or a tit-for-tat transaction. Last year, I preached an Advent sermon series on the life of St. Nicholas, and in the message on the Council of Nicaea (which was crazy fun to preach), I put it something like this:
          ...if Arius is right, and Jesus doesn't share the essence of the Father, then being joined to Jesus – being the branches of his vine, the members of his body – does not join us to God. And that makes all the difference, because salvation is God's life being shared with us. If Jesus doesn't link us to the Father's life, doesn't bring us into an eternal communion, then John was wrong to promise that “in him was life, and that life was the light of men” (John 1:4) – because if Arius is right, then God's life wasn't in him, and it didn't enlighten us. If Arius is right, our salvation is left incomplete; we haven't been brought near after all.
          "The Jesus Christ who saves sinners is the same Christ who beckons his followers to serious use of their minds for serious explorations of the world." - Mark Noll

          "It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading." - John Wesley

          "Wherever men are still theological, there is still some chance of their being logical." - G. K. Chesterton

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            It must be a pretty strong propensity in that case,
            No question.
            because I don't think there's a single human being yet (apart from Christ of course, but then I don't think He was born with a propensity to sin in the first place) who has been able to keep themselves from sinning. We might not be literally predestined to sin, but I'm not sure a universe where we were predestined to sin would look very different from the current one.

            Or to put it another way; ISTM like a sinless human(with Christ as the obvious exception) after the fall is nothing more than theoretical curiosity, and will continue to be so until Christ returns and renews Creation.
            To put it a third way: if it is not theoretically possible for a human to be sinless, yet Jesus was sinless, did he become human after all?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #21
              Originally posted by psstein View Post
              There were those in the early church who believed that Jesus had been adopted by God at the time of his baptism, though I don't know how you can easily reconcile that with the Carmen Christi or much of Paul's Christology.
              A position which has been condemned by the church as a heresy known as Adoptionism. Interestingly enough, I have known a pastor who preached this.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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              • #22
                If he had been sinless without being divine, then yes he probably could have atoned for everyone's sins. But as a few people have already pointed out, Jesus specifically said that only God is good. The Bible seems to teach that his divine identity is what kept him from sin in the first place. The Trinity is made up of three persons who are unified. The main thing making them "one" is simply their submission/loyalty to each other. Jesus's name is the Word of God, and obedience is his identity.

                1 John 3:9
                Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                  Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human, instead of God-man?

                  Since Jesus Christ was sinless wouldn't He be an appropriate, acceptable and legal ransom?

                  I've encountered two Unitarians who claim they are saved by the sinless man, Jesus, and Jesus did not have to be the incarnate Word of God in order to save them.

                  What do you guys think?

                  Thank you.
                  I think so, yes. A purely human Christ, through whom the Father worked to save sinners, would be the Saviour, not by any power in himself, but because he was God’s instrument. As long as it was the gracious will of God to regard as us as saved, that is what we would be, regardless of the method adopted. IMHO, everything in creation depends on a kind of Divine Voluntarism: X is the case, if - and only if - God, Who created X to be as it is, “decides” to “see” X as being the case. Reality is what God “thinks” it is. Of itself, nothing is anything. So if God sees a sinner as “holy in Christ”, that sinner, however sinful, is holy “in Christ”.

                  If Christ had been a sinner, and God had chosen that sinner to be Saviour of the world, then that is what that sinner would have been. So I don’t think freedom from sin was necessary for the Saviour to be the Saviour. As far as I can see, the Saviour was Divine and sinlessly Holy only so that we might be the more attracted to Him, so that He might be all the more glorified. But had God willed to choose a mere sinful man as Saviour, He could have done so.

                  As to what in fact God has done, that is not what has happened. But no Christian with a Bible needs that explained. I agree with those Unitarians’ reasoning, but I deny absolutely that Christ is a mere man or creature however highly exalted.

                  As for His being our Sacrifice, I believe that was necessary only because God so ordained. A mere man could have been regarded as the one, unique, all-sufficient sacrifice for all sin, if God had so willed. IMO. Or there might have been no sacrifice. What did in fact occur, was not necessitated by anything in any way. Everything depended on the free “decision” of God.
                  Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 10-13-2017, 01:41 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Jesus when on earth, according to Scripture, was only Human as he is called the "last Adam" at 1 Cor. 15:45 and as the word "Adam" is Hebrew meaning "earthling man" or "humankind" etc. the answer is yes.
                    BU

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                      Jesus when on earth, according to Scripture, was only Human as he is called the "last Adam" at 1 Cor. 15:45 and as the word "Adam" is Hebrew meaning "earthling man" or "humankind" etc. the answer is yes.
                      BU
                      Your premise is false. Yes, Jesus was human in the Incarnation (and remains so). He is also God. John's prologue makes that clear (as does Luke 2, which refers to both Jesus and God as the Lord).
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
                        A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
                        See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
                        Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
                        BU

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                          The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
                          A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
                          See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
                          Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
                          BU
                          It may be that your philosophising does not comport with what the Scriptures actually teach. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania does not dictate what God can and cannot do.
                          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                            The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
                            A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
                            See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
                            Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
                            BU
                            Elsewhere in the NT we have Jesus being declared as being "in very nature God".

                            Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)
                            5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

                            6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
                            did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
                            7 rather, he made himself nothing
                            by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
                            being made in human likeness.

                            You can't honestly read/translate the NT without seeing that it teaches that Jesus is both God, and man.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                              The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
                              A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
                              See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
                              Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
                              BU
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              Elsewhere in the NT we have Jesus being declared as being "in very nature God".

                              Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)
                              5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

                              6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
                              did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
                              7 rather, he made himself nothing
                              by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
                              being made in human likeness.

                              You can't honestly read/translate the NT without seeing that it teaches that Jesus is both God, and man.
                              I had once very briefly toyed with Arian thought, but ultimately could not go very far with it. It alters one’s perception of redemption.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                                It may be that your philosophising does not comport with what the Scriptures actually teach. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania does not dictate what God can and cannot do.
                                But The Bible does!
                                BU

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