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Thread: Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human?

  1. #11
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    If they aren't saved by the incarnate Word of God they aren't saved at all, no matter what they might be personally feeling.
    Agreed.
    If Jesus was only human it wouldn't have been possible for him to be sinless.
    I don't know that I'd go that far. We have a propensity toward sin, not a predestination to sin.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    I think the cross shows us God bearing the punishment for our sins, a human dying for sin would not be God bearing them.

    Also, "by his wounds we are healed" (Isa. 53:5), I don't see how a human being wounded provides healing for our souls.

    Blessings,
    Lee

  3. Amen LostSheep amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    The greatest act of love is to lay one's life down for one's friends. God is love. So, it would not make sense for a mere human to pull off the greatest act pf love and God to never do so. Except God can't die due to being intangible spirit(no parts to separate or damage). Hence, the Incarnation. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  5. Amen LostSheep, lee_merrill amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    The greatest act of love is to lay one's life down for one's friends. God is love. So, it would not make sense for a mere human to pull off the greatest act pf love and God to never do so. Except God can't die due to being intangible spirit(no parts to separate or damage). Hence, the Incarnation. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
    Edited by a Moderator

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pixie View Post
    Edited by a Moderator
    There are no sinless men (Romans 3:10-11). The only reason the man Jesus Christ was sinless was He was also the God being the Son of God (John 5:18). Now a mere sinless man can only die for one. In the capacity being equal to God a moment of suffering can equal the suffering of infinite men an infinite time.

    Now a thing to note is that the atonement was completed on the cross prior to His physical death (John 19:28-30). And it was the forsaking of Him on the cross (Psalm 22:1; Mark 15:34). And it was His shed blood (1 Peter 1:19), the death of His soul (Isaiah 53:10, 12) by which He made the payment for sins (Isaiah 53:6). And after the payment (Romans 5:8; Romans 6:23) was made He again had fellowship with God His Father (Luke 23:46). ". . . it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: . . . " -- Luke 24:46.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 09-12-2017 at 01:49 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I don't know that I'd go that far. We have a propensity toward sin, not a predestination to sin.
    It must be a pretty strong propensity in that case, because I don't think there's a single human being yet (apart from Christ of course, but then I don't think He was born with a propensity to sin in the first place) who has been able to keep themselves from sinning. We might not be literally predestined to sin, but I'm not sure a universe where we were predestined to sin would look very different from the current one.

    Or to put it another way; ISTM like a sinless human(with Christ as the obvious exception) after the fall is nothing more than theoretical curiosity, and will continue to be so until Christ returns and renews Creation.
    Last edited by Chrawnus; 09-12-2017 at 07:48 PM.

  9. Amen Cerebrum123, Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Or to put it another way; ISTM like a sinless human(with Christ as the obvious exception) after the fall is nothing more than theoretical curiosity, and will continue to be so until Christ returns and renews Creation.
    Yes, we are born sinners, and we sin because we are sinners.

    Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, we are born sinners, and we sin because we are sinners.

    Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Too often sin is considered just the actions that come from our fallen nature. True sin is what makes us act improperly.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  12. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  13. #19
    tWebber JB DoulosChristou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human, instead of God-man?

    Since Jesus Christ was sinless wouldn't He be an appropriate, acceptable and legal ransom?

    I've encountered two Unitarians who claim they are saved by the sinless man, Jesus, and Jesus did not have to be the incarnate Word of God in order to save them.

    What do you guys think?

    Thank you.
    I'm inclined to think not.

    First, even focusing in on a ransom or substitutionary element, one could (maybe) make the case that the life of one sinless man could substitute for, or ransom, the life of one sinner. One would have a much harder time - as these Unitarians must - making the case that the life of one sinless man (but a mere, solitary man nevertheless) would be "an appropriate, acceptable, and legal ransom" for upwards of a billion sinners (or more, in potentiality). Certainly, it doesn't seem very plausible.

    But second, the Unitarians are presuming a very 'pared-down' version of salvation, which is drastically more than a payment for due punishment or a tit-for-tat transaction. Last year, I preached an Advent sermon series on the life of St. Nicholas, and in the message on the Council of Nicaea (which was crazy fun to preach), I put it something like this:

    ...if Arius is right, and Jesus doesn't share the essence of the Father, then being joined to Jesus – being the branches of his vine, the members of his body – does not join us to God. And that makes all the difference, because salvation is God's life being shared with us. If Jesus doesn't link us to the Father's life, doesn't bring us into an eternal communion, then John was wrong to promise that “in him was life, and that life was the light of men” (John 1:4) – because if Arius is right, then God's life wasn't in him, and it didn't enlighten us. If Arius is right, our salvation is left incomplete; we haven't been brought near after all.
    "The Jesus Christ who saves sinners is the same Christ who beckons his followers to serious use of their minds for serious explorations of the world." - Mark Noll

    "It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading." - John Wesley

    "Wherever men are still theological, there is still some chance of their being logical." - G. K. Chesterton

  14. Amen Bill the Cat, Cerebrum123, lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  15. #20
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    It must be a pretty strong propensity in that case,
    No question.
    because I don't think there's a single human being yet (apart from Christ of course, but then I don't think He was born with a propensity to sin in the first place) who has been able to keep themselves from sinning. We might not be literally predestined to sin, but I'm not sure a universe where we were predestined to sin would look very different from the current one.

    Or to put it another way; ISTM like a sinless human(with Christ as the obvious exception) after the fall is nothing more than theoretical curiosity, and will continue to be so until Christ returns and renews Creation.
    To put it a third way: if it is not theoretically possible for a human to be sinless, yet Jesus was sinless, did he become human after all?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  16. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.

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