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Thread: Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human?

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    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psstein View Post
    There were those in the early church who believed that Jesus had been adopted by God at the time of his baptism, though I don't know how you can easily reconcile that with the Carmen Christi or much of Paul's Christology.
    A position which has been condemned by the church as a heresy known as Adoptionism. Interestingly enough, I have known a pastor who preached this.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    If he had been sinless without being divine, then yes he probably could have atoned for everyone's sins. But as a few people have already pointed out, Jesus specifically said that only God is good. The Bible seems to teach that his divine identity is what kept him from sin in the first place. The Trinity is made up of three persons who are unified. The main thing making them "one" is simply their submission/loyalty to each other. Jesus's name is the Word of God, and obedience is his identity.

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

  3. #23
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human, instead of God-man?

    Since Jesus Christ was sinless wouldn't He be an appropriate, acceptable and legal ransom?

    I've encountered two Unitarians who claim they are saved by the sinless man, Jesus, and Jesus did not have to be the incarnate Word of God in order to save them.

    What do you guys think?

    Thank you.
    I think so, yes. A purely human Christ, through whom the Father worked to save sinners, would be the Saviour, not by any power in himself, but because he was God’s instrument. As long as it was the gracious will of God to regard as us as saved, that is what we would be, regardless of the method adopted. IMHO, everything in creation depends on a kind of Divine Voluntarism: X is the case, if - and only if - God, Who created X to be as it is, “decides” to “see” X as being the case. Reality is what God “thinks” it is. Of itself, nothing is anything. So if God sees a sinner as “holy in Christ”, that sinner, however sinful, is holy “in Christ”.

    If Christ had been a sinner, and God had chosen that sinner to be Saviour of the world, then that is what that sinner would have been. So I don’t think freedom from sin was necessary for the Saviour to be the Saviour. As far as I can see, the Saviour was Divine and sinlessly Holy only so that we might be the more attracted to Him, so that He might be all the more glorified. But had God willed to choose a mere sinful man as Saviour, He could have done so.

    As to what in fact God has done, that is not what has happened. But no Christian with a Bible needs that explained. I agree with those Unitarians’ reasoning, but I deny absolutely that Christ is a mere man or creature however highly exalted.

    As for His being our Sacrifice, I believe that was necessary only because God so ordained. A mere man could have been regarded as the one, unique, all-sufficient sacrifice for all sin, if God had so willed. IMO. Or there might have been no sacrifice. What did in fact occur, was not necessitated by anything in any way. Everything depended on the free “decision” of God.

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    tWebber
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    Jesus when on earth, according to Scripture, was only Human as he is called the "last Adam" at 1 Cor. 15:45 and as the word "Adam" is Hebrew meaning "earthling man" or "humankind" etc. the answer is yes.
    BU

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Jesus when on earth, according to Scripture, was only Human as he is called the "last Adam" at 1 Cor. 15:45 and as the word "Adam" is Hebrew meaning "earthling man" or "humankind" etc. the answer is yes.
    BU
    Your premise is false. Yes, Jesus was human in the Incarnation (and remains so). He is also God. John's prologue makes that clear (as does Luke 2, which refers to both Jesus and God as the Lord).
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  6. Amen Chrawnus, The Remonstrant, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
    A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
    See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
    Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
    BU

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    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
    A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
    See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
    Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
    BU
    It may be that your philosophising does not comport with what the Scriptures actually teach. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania does not dictate what God can and cannot do.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



  9. Amen Cerebrum123, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
    A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
    See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
    Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
    BU
    Elsewhere in the NT we have Jesus being declared as being "in very nature God".

    Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)
    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    You can't honestly read/translate the NT without seeing that it teaches that Jesus is both God, and man.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  11. Amen 37818, Chrawnus, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  12. #29
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
    A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
    See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
    Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
    BU
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Elsewhere in the NT we have Jesus being declared as being "in very nature God".

    Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)
    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    You can't honestly read/translate the NT without seeing that it teaches that Jesus is both God, and man.
    I had once very briefly toyed with Arian thought, but ultimately could not go very far with it. It alters one’s perception of redemption.
    ‘To say that God deliberately brings about a sinful human race so that he may [unconditionally] elect some to salvation, and then deliberately sends the nonelect to hell so that his saving gace may appear all the more glorious, is the opposite of grace.’
    —Jack W. Cottrell, ‘Responses to Robert L. Reymond’, in Chad Owen Brand (ed.), Perspectives on Election: Five Views (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2006), p. 202, emphasis in original



  13. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    It may be that your philosophising does not comport with what the Scriptures actually teach. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania does not dictate what God can and cannot do.
    But The Bible does!
    BU

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