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Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Elsewhere in the NT we have Jesus being declared as being "in very nature God".

    Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)
    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    You can't honestly read/translate the NT without seeing that it teaches that Jesus is both God, and man.
    OK
    As in John 1:1-2 we see therein "The Word" having God's nature but not person.
    BU

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
      OK
      As in John 1:1-2 we see therein "The Word" having God's nature but not person.
      BU
      If a person has a human nature they are human. If an animal has a canine nature they are a dog.

      If Jesus has God's Nature, he is God. And since there is only ONE God, he has to be Jehovah.

      The bible also says Jesus created everything and only God can do that.

      Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

      Jesus is shown to be God throughout the New Testament.


      2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

      Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

      John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
        OK
        As in John 1:1-2 we see therein "The Word" having God's nature but not person.
        BU
        Hence the logical conclusion of the Trinity. Jesus is God, meaning He has God's nature. However, He is a different person. Notice that John also states that the Word "was God".

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
          OK
          As in John 1:1-2 we see therein "The Word" having God's nature but not person.
          BU
          Sparko said it, but just to make it plain - "nature" in Philippians 2:5-7 is "μορφη:" the fundamental/innate form ... And later in that passage, "he took the fundamental/innate form of a servant." that is "metamorphosis." Having been God, he metamorphosed into a human.

          But you have claimed "a god," which is grammatically viable in John 1:1, or rather, would be except that John 1:10 shows that he was the creator of the world.
          Likewise, the claim that Philippians 2:6 says "a god" is not viable; you would have the author claiming that there is more than one being who is innately a god.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
            The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
            A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
            See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
            Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
            BU
            Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
            It may be that your philosophising does not comport with what the Scriptures actually teach. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania does not dictate what God can and cannot do.
            Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
            But The Bible does!
            BU
            You have answered wisely.
            For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              No. A sinless sacrifice may have been sufficient to cover our sins, but could not renew our nature.
              The original question is badly posed. The question should be "Could God have saved us using a purely human Christ." It seems obvious that the answer is yes, if you accept the typical concepts of God. The question is how much would have to change.

              As to renewing, Paul says in Rom 6 that our nature is renewed because we die and rise with Christ. The union with Christ that allows that could be done by God even if Christ were purely human.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                The scriptures call him -Jesus- "Adam" like, which is like that which he died for to undo the first Adam's badness.
                A God would not have to die for that, it would be a gross injustice to God himself, thus God provided that which was due
                See 1 Tim. 2:6 Like for Like.
                Quote - 1 Timothy 2:5 ". . .a man, Christ Jesus,..."
                BU
                It is important to note that Jesus is even now a man. Being that after He was risen from the dead, He had His body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39), He being a man. Now as that Man it is written of Him, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." -- Hebrews 13:8.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                  The original question is badly posed. The question should be "Could God have saved us using a purely human Christ." It seems obvious that the answer is yes, if you accept the typical concepts of God. The question is how much would have to change.

                  As to renewing, Paul says in Rom 6 that our nature is renewed because we die and rise with Christ. The union with Christ that allows that could be done by God even if Christ were purely human.
                  The failure of this argument is that humans are sinful because they acquired God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22). So no human without some how being God could ever be sinless (Mark 10:18). This has already been pointed out in this thread.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    If a person has a human nature they are human. If an animal has a canine nature they are a dog.

                    If Jesus has God's Nature, he is God. And since there is only ONE God, he has to be Jehovah.

                    The bible also says Jesus created everything and only God can do that.

                    Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

                    Jesus is shown to be God throughout the New Testament.


                    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

                    Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

                    John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
                    Jesus said:-
                    John 20:17
                    Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

                    Jesus has a God!!
                    BU

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                      Jesus said:-
                      John 20:17
                      Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

                      Jesus has a God!!
                      BU
                      Jesus the man. God is not a man. Then as in John 20:17 and now 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 13:8. This does not change the account that Thomas later addressed Jesus as both the man as Lord and as God, John 20:28.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                        Jesus said:-
                        John 20:17
                        Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

                        Jesus has a God!!
                        BU
                        Why do you keep ignoring the verses I posted and just try to find a counter example instead? Are you claiming that the rest of the bible is lying then? Do you deny that Thomas called Jesus his God? That Col 1:16 says all things were made by him? That Peter called him God?

                        Do you think that those verses are wrong? I have no problem with John 20:17 since Jesus is talking about the Father as a man. That fits with the Trinitarian view. In fact such verses are why we do have a Trinitarian view. The bible says that Jesus created everything, It also says the Holy Spirit created and that the Father Created. Yet in the Old testament it says that Jehovah created by himself with no help and there is no other God. So we have three persons who are the Creator, but only One God. The conclusion is that there is a Trinity: One God revealed as three distinct persons.

                        The only one having trouble believing and reconciling all of the verses in the bible as true seems to be you. You just ignore the ones that prove you wrong and cling to ones that you think prove you right, but they don't.

                        Wake up.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Jesus' own word are more than enough for any Christian to make a point about Christian teachings .
                          That's my drop of point as a Christian.
                          BU

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                            Jesus' own word are more than enough for any Christian to make a point about Christian teachings .
                            That's my drop of point as a Christian.
                            BU
                            A doubtful claim, but it may be true.

                            You miss a few critical points in your assessment.
                            1/ Man is triune, having a body, a soul, and a spirit; and man is made in the image and likeness of God. This fact cannot perhaps make the nature of the trinity understandable, but it certainly makes it possible to appreciate the nature of the trinity.
                            2/ Jesus, the man, referred to the Father as his god. That would make the father his superior; and a man's spirit is superior to both his body and his soul.
                            3/ The Word (in the Targums, the memra) is equal with God, is with God, and is God. The claim that the statement "theos en ho logos θεος ην ο λογοσ" CAN indicate that the logos is A god* is true on the strict analysis of grammar for the text in isolation from the surrounding context. The claim that it does or must mean the logos is A god is false for the context, which shows that the logos is the creator.
                            4/ Jesus spoke of times prior to his incarnation as a man. On some of those occasions, it is clear that he, prior to his incarnation as a man, was God. That he clearly existed prior to his incarnation as a man is also made clear.

                            * theos en ho ares - "Aries (Mars) was a god" is a valid statement - it would mean "Aries is A god."
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              A doubtful claim, but it may be true.

                              You miss a few critical points in your assessment.
                              1/ Man is triune, having a body, a soul, and a spirit; and man is made in the image and likeness of God. This fact cannot perhaps make the nature of the trinity understandable, but it certainly makes it possible to appreciate the nature of the trinity.
                              2/ Jesus, the man, referred to the Father as his god. That would make the father his superior; and a man's spirit is superior to both his body and his soul.
                              3/ The Word (in the Targums, the memra) is equal with God, is with God, and is God. The claim that the statement "theos en ho logos θεος ην ο λογοσ" CAN indicate that the logos is A god* is true on the strict analysis of grammar for the text in isolation from the surrounding context. The claim that it does or must mean the logos is A god is false for the context, which shows that the logos is the creator.
                              4/ Jesus spoke of times prior to his incarnation as a man. On some of those occasions, it is c
                              lear that he, prior to his incarnation as a man, was God. That he clearly existed prior to his incarnation as a man is also made clear.

                              * theos en ho ares - "Aries (Mars) was a god" is a valid statement - it would mean "Aries is A god."
                              In John 1:1-3 "ho theos" is not what "ho logos" was, he was "theos" less "ho" thus not "The God" but "god" .
                              BU

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                                Jesus' own word are more than enough for any Christian to make a point about Christian teachings .
                                That's my drop of point as a Christian.
                                BU
                                So you don't trust Paul as a prime first century interpreter (and apostle) who would be more trustworthy and authentic than anyone in subsequent generations?

                                Are you rejecting what Paul has revealed to us about Christ Jesus?

                                Is your understanding of the Greek surpassing the men of God in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, many who spoke Greek as a first language?

                                How do you counter the debates that went on in those early years? How have you solved the issues better than they?

                                Comment

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