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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Could Jesus Christ have saved us if He had only been human?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
    So you don't trust Paul as a prime first century interpreter (and apostle) who would be more trustworthy and authentic than anyone in subsequent generations?

    Are you rejecting what Paul has revealed to us about Christ Jesus?

    Is your understanding of the Greek surpassing the men of God in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, many who spoke Greek as a first language?

    How do you counter the debates that went on in those early years? How have you solved the issues better than they?

    Paul only supports what Christ was and said.
    BU

    Comment


    • #47
      BU, I urge you to open your eyes and confront the evidence we are presenting. You obviously recognize that we have a point here, which is why you keep avoiding our points and trying to talk around what we present by presenting what you think is a counter verse. You know all of the bible is true, not just one verse that you happen to choose at random that matches your own view. It all has to reconcile. You can't counter a verse that says Jesus is God by posting a verse that says he is a man. They both have to be true. You have to reconcile both and not ignore them.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        BU, I urge you to open your eyes and confront the evidence we are presenting. You obviously recognize that we have a point here, which is why you keep avoiding our points and trying to talk around what we present by presenting what you think is a counter verse. You know all of the bible is true, not just one verse that you happen to choose at random that matches your own view. It all has to reconcile. You can't counter a verse that says Jesus is God by posting a verse that says he is a man. They both have to be true. You have to reconcile both and not ignore them.
        Jesus is just as you say, god and man, one in heaven and one on earth.
        We have things in common.
        Jesus is a divine being (a deity) just not an Almighty one.
        BU

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
          Jesus is just as you say, god and man, one in heaven and one on earth.
          We have things in common.
          Jesus is a divine being (a deity) just not an Almighty one.
          BU
          How do you reconcile that with God saying he is the only God, there is no other besides him? That no other god was formed before or after him?

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          • #50
            Good point Sparko

            Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah said: “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.”

            [B] The point is that Jehovah had no predecessor, that no god existed before him[/B], for he is eternal. There will be no god with the same likeness after Jehovah because he will always exist and will have no successors as the Supreme Sovereign. Yet, Jehovah did produce others that he himself called gods, as an example the Scriptures show by saying concerning certain humans: “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Surely you will die just as men do; and like any one of the princes you will fall!’” (Psalm 82:6,*7) Similarly, the Word was a god created by Jehovah, but that did not make Jesus equal to Almighty God at any time.

            The woed "god" can also be used in a generic sence for a divine being like an angel. It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10:-

            Philippians 2:6
            who, although he was existing in God’s form, . . .

            At Psalm 8:5, for example, we read: “You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones.” (Hebrew,*’elohimʹ; “a god,” New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible) The Greek Septuagint Version renders ’elo·himʹ here as “angels.” The Jewish translators of this version saw no conflict with monotheism in applying the term for God to created spirit persons.

            As a few examples.
            Hope this helps.
            BU

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
              Good point Sparko

              Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah said: “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.”

              [B] The point is that Jehovah had no predecessor, that no god existed before him[/B], for he is eternal. There will be no god with the same likeness after Jehovah because he will always exist and will have no successors as the Supreme Sovereign. Yet, Jehovah did produce others that he himself called gods, as an example the Scriptures show by saying concerning certain humans: “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Surely you will die just as men do; and like any one of the princes you will fall!’” (Psalm 82:6,*7) Similarly, the Word was a god created by Jehovah, but that did not make Jesus equal to Almighty God at any time.
              Psalm 82 is him actually condemning those so-called "gods" - did you read the part about "surely you will die just as men do?" He is saying they are NOT Gods, they are men and will die like men. He is condemning those judges, not praising them. Jehovah continually says that he is the only TRUE God. Any other 'gods' are false gods. They are not gods at all.



              Philippians 2:6
              who, although he was existing in God’s form, . . .
              Gah! He is saying that Jesus IS GOD. If there is only one God and Jesus is in "the form of God" then HE IS GOD.

              At Psalm 8:5, for example, we read: “You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones.” (Hebrew,*’elohimʹ; “a god,” New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible) The Greek Septuagint Version renders ’elo·himʹ here as “angels.” The Jewish translators of this version saw no conflict with monotheism in applying the term for God to created spirit persons.

              As a few examples.
              Hope this helps.
              BU
              You really need to get a modern bible translation instead of the horrid JW version you use.

              elohim can mean angel or judge in hebrew depending on the context, but the context in the Old Testament and New is that there is only ONE True God, Jehovah YHWH and no other. NONE. All other gods are false gods. And the NT never used "elohim" since it is written in greek. And it says in many placed directly that Jesus is GOD. not "A" God. Therefore Jesus is either the same God as Jehovah, or he is a false God and you should not follow him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Also Jehovah says he will not share his glory with anyone else:

                Is. 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my GLORY will I NOT GIVE ANOTHER

                Yet Jesus shares his glory:

                John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

                Comment

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