Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 51 to 57 of 57

Thread: Book Plunge: Evidence Considered

  1. #51
    tWebber TheWall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,287
    Amen (Given)
    1401
    Amen (Received)
    1590
    Didnt G.K Chesterton write a book criticizing Wells?

  2. #52
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,831
    Amen (Given)
    291
    Amen (Received)
    2813
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWall View Post
    Didnt G.K Chesterton write a book criticizing Wells?
    Considering Wells hadn't even been born yet....

  3. #53
    tWebber TheWall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,287
    Amen (Given)
    1401
    Amen (Received)
    1590
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Considering Wells hadn't even been born yet....
    True. Still everlasting man was a good rebuttal.

  4. #54
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,831
    Amen (Given)
    291
    Amen (Received)
    2813
    My bad. I had said H.G. instead of G.A. Editing that now.

  5. #55
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,831
    Amen (Given)
    291
    Amen (Received)
    2813
    What about the empty tomb?

    Link.

    -----

    Was Jesus's tomb found empty? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    In chapter 34 of Evidence Considered, Jelbert decides to take on Gary Habermas on if there was an empty tomb or not. At the start, Jelbert says that all of Habermas's material comes from Christian sources. He also says these are diluted by internal disagreements and contradictions.

    However, Habermas is just doing what all scholars do. Even Bart Ehrman will grant this point.

    If historians want to know what Jesus said and did they are more or less constrained to use the New Testament Gospels as their principal sources. Let me emphasize that this is not for religious or theological reasons--for instance, that these and these alone can be trusted. It is for historical reasons pure and simple. (Ehrman, The New Testament, page 215)

    Now if Jelbert thinks he has some sources that are more relevant to the life of Jesus and closer to the time, he's free to come forward and show them to us. I am sure the scholarly world would love to hear these sources. If not, then there's no reason to complain because Habermas uses the main sources that we have. Everyone does that.

    Jelbert says that Jesus had in the accounts left the tomb. Why on Earth would it be that angels would have left it open? This sounds like a good question unless you actually think about it for a few seconds. The tomb was open so that everyone could see that it was empty. It wasn't open so that Jesus could get out, but so that others could get in.

    He also says Habermas makes two assumptions. The first is that the Gospels are reliable which is what needs to be shown and that anyone would care to disprove the story anyway. Naturally, both of these are weak claims.

    For the former, he's not trying to prove the Gospels are reliable. He's trying to prove a part of the tradition in the Gospels, the empty tomb, is reliable, That's a big difference. The way he's doing it is by examining the sources we have with normal scholarly protocol. Again, everyone in the field does this.

    For the second, apparently Paul might have been in such a position. We know that within a year or two he was already out there persecuting Christians and that's just one person we're told about. Christians were regularly facing some sort of persecution from Jewish interlocutors.

    Jelbert goes on to say that Christian teachings explicitly encouraged belief without sight. Not at all, but we have the usual litany. Let's go through each of them.

    We have Jesus with Thomas saying "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." This is a strange passage to use because it would imply that we who are later on are in a better position than the apostles who saw Jesus themselves. Thomas's problem was that he had every reason to trust Jesus and he failed to believe.

    1 Cor. 1:19 says God will destroy the wisdom of the wise and the intelligence of the intelligent he will frustrate. This verse has absolutely nothing to do with seeing something. What it is talking about is a masterful rhetorical work where the teaching of Jesus would challenge the sophists of the day by going against their preconceived notions of what a king should be and by revealing them to be frauds. Sophists, after all, could stand up one day and make a powerful argument that the nation ought to go to war against the enemy and receive applause for it, and the next day get up and argue the exact opposite.

    No list of verses like this would be complete without Hebrews 11:1. I have written on that one before here. Nothing further needs to be said.

    Jelbert says 1 Thess. 5:21 is often brought out, but that it applies to prophecy. I do agree on that one. Still, I think it's a principle that can easily be applied across the board.

    When he talks about the women discovering the tomb, he says that if the Gospel writers wrote that, they probably believed it. Yet this is what strikes me as odd. Jelbert talks about the accounts evolving over time. If they did, why did this part not evolve? Wouldn't women witnesses be one of the first ones to change? Why not make the disciples into the heroes?

    Jelbert says Mark and Luke have the women wanting to anoint the body with spices, but Matthew has them just wanting to look in the tomb. This is because Matthew has a story about guards that is found nowhere else. There's one reason that I really think the story has credibility and this is something Jelbert never mentions. The text says the story has been told "to this day."

    If this story wasn't being told in Matthew's day, any reader would say, "Well not it hasn't. We've never heard that story." This is a direct acknowledgment of what was being said at the time. Again, Jelbert never mentions this.

    Jelbert also says since Matthew changes Mark, that shows he doesn't think Mark is reliable. That doesn't follow. It could mean he does some editing to highlight certain points. It could be he wants to refine a detail. It could be he thinks a detail is unneeded. Jelbert just assumes the worst and goes with it.

    Jelbert says that Paul never mentions the tomb at all, but what he needs to show is that he needs to. Paul writes about Jesus buried and risen and the word there indicates coming up from a lying down position. As a Pharisee, Paul would believe that what is placed in the tomb naturally comes back up again. Also, one will search in vain for any interaction with a work like Gundry's Soma In Biblical Greek to see what is meant by a body.

    Jelbert also says that when Paul says "Last of all he appeared to me, it implies an exhaustive list." Why? Your guess is as good as mine. I see nothing here to make me think the list had to be exhaustive.

    Getting back to the guard story, Jelbert says the chief priests and Pharisees go on the Sabbath to request a guard from Pilate who gives them one. That's a problem at the start because there's debate on if Pilate gives them a guard of if he acknowledges they had their own guards. He says the angels knock the soldiers out with an earthquake, which again I do not see in the text. They come to and run to the leaders who tell them what to say and assure them they will keep them safe. Jelbert says none of this is plausible. I suppose it isn't when you straw man all of it.

    Jelbert also says that if a body was raised from a mass grave, that would not leave an empty tomb. Sure, but no one claims it is a mass grave. If Jelbert thinks he has such a source, let him show it. All four of our early sources here all agree that Jesus was buried in a tomb alone.

    Jelbert now goes to 1 Cor. 15 and the passage about the spiritual body. If this means immaterial, we have a problem. Paul speaks of spiritual men in chapters 2 and 3. He speaks of a spiritual rock in chapter 10. In that same chapter he writes about spiritual food and drink. Spiritual does not necessitate immaterial and again, the reader is invited to check the work of Gundry.

    Right now I am convinced the tomb was empty, but not only that, so is Jelbert's critique of it.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  6. #56
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,831
    Amen (Given)
    291
    Amen (Received)
    2813
    Chapter 35

    Link

    ----

    Is there a case for the resurrection appearances? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    In this chapter, Glenton Jelbert decides to take on Gary Habermas on the resurrection appearances. He says that he concedes Jesus died on the cross, but he disagrees with the empty tomb. Our last look at that found his denial of the empty tomb lacking. He says this issue, however, is the one that caused him to lose his faith.

    At the start, Jelbert disagrees that the resurrection is the foundation of Christianity. There are plenty of Christians apparently that deny it and maintain their Christianity. It's hard to know what kind of Christianity they maintain. If they just like the moral teachings of Jesus, then an atheist could be a Christian by that standard. Historical Christianity has always agreed on the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

    Habermas says that naturalistic explanations fail to account for the appearances of Jesus. Jelbert refers to this as an appeal to ignorance, but how it is is difficult to see. If naturalistic explanations fail, then one is justified in thinking that an extra-materialistic explanation works. Jelbert does say that if someone told you they saw someone risen from the dead, you would think there was a misunderstanding. No one is denying that. What is being denied is that if more evidence piles up in favor of resurrection and naturalistic explanations fail, one should seek more than those at that point. If Jelbert wants to say that evidence will not change his mind on this point, then evidence isn't what changed his mind to begin with.

    Jelbert also says that this was a time when miracles were readily accepted. He has provided no evidence for this claim. It could be true, but shouldn't Jelbert make some sort of argument for that? He also says they are in a document written to persuade, much like any historical account was written to persuade. This is a reason to deny all of history. Does Jelbert think there would be people impartial about the resurrection? Isn't Jelbert's account written to persuade? If accounts written to persuade cannot ipso facto be trusted, then I cannot trust Jelbert.

    He also says these stories were written down in an account that passed through communities orally. We could go on about the reliability of oral tradition, but at this point, there is no need to do so. The account that Habermas bases it on does not have this problem since it is the 1 Corinthians 15 passage.

    Jelbert says he is surprised that Habermas did not use the Gospel accounts. He says they are irreconcilable and maybe Habermas is tacitly acknowledging that. Nothing of the sort. Habermas uses Paul because the critics love Paul and the testimony is accepted across the board and it is earlier than the Gospels.

    Jelbert also uses 1 Cor. 15:44 to say that the body was a spiritual body and not a physical body. Unfortunately, Jelbert does not interact with any of the contrary scholarship on this point. There is no looking at a work like Gundry's Soma in Biblical Greek. There is no looking at the word for raised in 1 Cor. 15 indicating rising from a position of sitting or laying down.

    From here, Jelbert thinks that the argument is Paul had a vision. Yet if Jelbert's interpretation of spiritual body is wrong, and it is, then that is not the case. After all, Paul speaks of spiritual men and rocks in the book of 1 Corinthians and none of these refer to something immaterial.

    Further along on this, Jelbert says in verse 50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. It is ignored that this is not a statement of ontology, but rather a statement of the sinful nature of man. A man in his mortal and sinful state cannot inherit the kingdom. That is why a resurrection is needed to begin with.

    In Philippians 2:8-9, Jelbert says Jesus is exalted with no mention of an empty tomb or a resurrection, but why should there be? We have songs about Jesus reigning today that don't explicitly mention a resurrection. This is another modern idea that unless something is explicitly mentioned, it is not the case. Philippians 3 also has our bodies being transformed to be like Christ's glorious body.

    What this means is that for Jelbert, Jesus's appearances were direct from Heaven, but if that is the case then why do we have an idea of bodily resurrection even in the Gospels so much so that it totally supplants the original tradition? How did this belief totally replace apostolic teaching of just divine exaltation? Jelbert does not explain this at all.

    Jelbert also says Romans 1:4 says that Jesus was appointed the Son of God in power by His resurrection from the dead. Jelbert sees this as adoptionist. That is not the best reading of the text. The term better means that the resurrection revealed who it was that Jesus was. Another example of this is in Acts 2:36 which Jelbert says that this Jesus, God has made Lord and Christ. Yet this is from Luke and even in Luke 2, Jesus is referred to as Christ the Lord. This is about vindication and not declaration.

    Jelbert really shows his bad exegetical skills when he says that in 1 Cor. 1:18, that Paul believed the Gospel message he taught to be foolish. Paul says it is foolish to those that are perishing. Paul is making a comparative statement about the philosophy of his day and how the philosophical minds saw the Gospel as foolishness for following a crucified Messiah. He is saying this that the world sees as foolish is what God was using to confound their so-called wisdom. Jelbert reads it to say that Paul thinks the evidence is unconvincing even to him. There is something foolish here, but it is not the Gospel.

    Next he goes to the creed. Jelbert says the creed does not state time or place. This is not surprising since creeds are meant to be short and abbreviated by nature. He also says that it would not refer to the twelve, but this is an acceptable practice. Sports fans can speak of the Big Ten conference knowing there are more than ten teams involved. The twelve came to be a name for the apostles, which did have a replacement at that point if the account in Acts is accurate of Matthias being elected. It's interesting that he says the Gospels are clear that there were only 11 witnesses. This is not clear since we have the two on the road to Emmaus and many in Matthew 28. It's also interesting that this is a time Jelbert wants us to trust the Gospels.

    The women are also not mentioned and Jelbert says this is to be an exhaustive list since it says that last of all, Jesus appeared to Paul. Yet why should that imply the list is exhaustive? It is just saying that Paul received the final appearance.

    Jelbert sees theological evolution taking place, but this is quite strange. The texts evolved from Paul having over 500 witnesses to Mark which has, well, none. This is hardly the case of evolution.

    Jelbert also says about James that we cannot be sure this is the brother of Jesus since the term "brothers" is used as a familiar term and James is called "The Lord's brother" and not "Jesus's brother. Yet why would James be specified then? Would Peter and John and not be brothers of the Lord in that sense?

    Jelbert also says that for Paul, the term Lord referred to the risen Lord and not the historical Jesus. He quotes Romans 10:9 which tells us that if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. If you can figure out how this backs Jelbert's argument, please let me know. I have no idea.

    Jelbert then returns to 1 Cor. 1 and says that Paul tells Christians to expect to be called fools. This in conjunction with ideas like blessed are those who have not seen and believed indicate that Christians didn't care about evidence, much like today. If they didn't care, then why even bother writing about the creed? Why even bother having one? Jelbert does such eisegesis here that the Mormons and JWs would be amazed.

    When asking about natural explanations, Jelbert also says that Christians persecuted those who disagreed. No evidence is given of this. We see nothing indicating that Strauss or Hume or others went through persecution. It also doesn't explain why there is a lack of natural explanations today.

    Jelbert also says the church has not remained the same. On the foundational issues, it has. Are there some secondary issues that have changed? Yes. The resurrection hasn't.

    In the end, it's a shame Jelbert lost his faith over this because his explanations are just weak. He has some of the worst interpretations out there of the text and has not done proper research. We'll see next time what he has to say about the claim that the appearances were hallucinations.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  7. #57
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,831
    Amen (Given)
    291
    Amen (Received)
    2813
    36

    Link

    ----

    Were the resurrection appearances hallucinations? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    It's been awhile since we looked at Glenton Jelbert's work. Let's get back into that. This time, we're looking at his response to Michael Licona's chapter on the appearances. Thankfully, there is no denial that the appearances happened. The difference is still based on what they are.

    Jelbert quotes Licona who quotes Dale Allison saying that the topic of the historicity of the resurrection is the prize puzzle of New Testament scholarship. Jelbert tells us that this sentence succinctly concedes atheism and shows the presuppositional nature of the research. The quote shows that even conservative scholars agree more evidence is needed.

    I have looked over this time and time again and wondered how Jelbert has arrived at this conclusion. Jelbert seems to have this tendency to make grand leaps without showing he's really understood what has been said and is assuming a conclusion thinking everyone else will see how obvious it will. No. We won't.

    All Allison is saying is that the question of Jesus is the great topic of controversy in New Testament Studies. A number of New Testament scholars on both sides don't even touch it. I still have no idea how Jelbert arrived at the conclusion that he did, but even if he does arrive at that conclusion, he should tell his readers how he arrived at it.

    Jelbert quotes Licona speaking about the possibility of one person saying "I see Jesus here" and then another saying something else and hysteria developing. There is a great problem with this. I say this as a man married to a woman who has hallucinations. Normally, these hallucinations are all realized quickly. The only exception would be an extreme case of schizophrenia like that in A Beautiful Mind.

    Of course, for this to follow, this must mean that of all the people Jesus chose to be His disciples, all of them had to have this kind of schizophrenia or something similar. After all, normally once a hallucination is done, while there can be some fear associated with it, it is realized to be a hallucination and one moves on. For the disciples, there is no indication that they moved on. They were convinced this was real.

    Licona then quotes Gary Sibcy who says that there is no record in the peer-reviewed journal of a documented case of a group hallucination. Jelbert responds that the apparitions of Mary, including the famous example of appearances to six children in 1981 in Medjugorje suggest otherwise.

    Yet here, Jelbert is assuming what he needs to prove. Let's consider some points. First off, it could be the children are playing and that they are the only ones claiming to see something, but if playing, this is not a mass hallucination and if all we have are children seeing this while doing this and adults there claiming to believe them, that is a mass delusion and not a mass hallucination. I am not saying this is what happened. I am saying this is a possibility.

    Second possibility, it could be the Catholics are right and this is an appearance of Mary. Again, as a non-Catholic, I am skeptical, but it would explain the data. If so, then this is not a hallucination.

    Third, it could be that there was something there, but that this was a demon posing as the Virgin Mary. Again, I am not saying this is what happened but presenting all possibilities. Again, if there really was something there, then this is not a mass hallucination.

    What Jelbert needs to do is demonstrate that there was no external referent. Since I doubt he was at the event, I don't think he can do this. Further, the only way to establish there was no such referent is if he says there was no referent because such appearances by demons or the Virgin Mary do not happen and we know this because these things don't exist. In this case, he is the one arguing in a circle.

    When we get to Paul, Jelbert says Paul watched Stephen get stoned and heard Stephen talking about heaven opening and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. He says it's not hard to imagine such an emotional and traumatic experience impressing even an "enemy." Well, yes, if you want to do psycho-history and assume people in the ancient world thought just like we do. There's no indication that Saul had any guilt whatsoever in what he was doing and was still going through it. This is just an account given to explain data away without any real support. This seems to be a common ploy in atheist critiques of events.

    Take an event hard to explain.
    Give a story that you think explains the situation without any hard data to back it.
    Assume the problem is dealt with.
    He also tells us that the appearances traditions contradict. If we just go with the ones in 1 Cor. 15, which are sufficient, we don't have a problem. Still, Jelbert's work is sloppy here. He says that Luke has the ascension at the end of his first book and then forty days later. Let's start with a basic assumption. Luke is not an idiot. He knows what he's doing. He is just condensing a large portion of material into a small space.

    He also says John 21 is plainly the same story as Luke 5. It's just moved to the end. Again, why should I think that? Could not Jesus have done this again to remind the disciples of a past event where He showed who He was?

    Jelbert also says that Ehrman points out doubt in the appearances. One verse is in Matthew 28:17, but I don't think this is doubt about Jesus's resurrection, but doubt about if they should worship Him or not. That Jesus gave many proofs isn't a problem either. We don't know for sure what He was doing, but apparently Ehrman is sure He knows why. Could He not be showing them the wonders of the resurrected body that they will have some day?

    He also looks at Luke 23:43. He sees a problem in Jesus saying that the robber would be with Him in paradise today. Why? Jesus goes to a waiting intermediate state before His resurrection with the robber. That's not a problem. Yet Jelbert says that maybe the comma is in the wrong place and it's Jesus just saying that He's saying this today.

    First off, what's the point of saying He's saying it today? When else will He tell it? This explanation doesn't fit.

    Second, most Greek experts think the placement of the comma is just fine. What evidence does Jelbert have otherwise? Let's see. The United Church of God. The UCG is not considered an orthodox Christian demonination at all. Why not go to a New Testament scholar instead?

    Jelbert also says that shifts in doctrine could occur easily at the start where oral tradition was the main way of communicating. There are problems here of course. The first is that the best place for evidence is 1 Cor. 15 and that's at the start of the oral tradition. Second is that oral tradition is really a great way of communicating information and Jelbert has done no research into how it is done or at least hasn't shown it.

    In the end, I find Jelbert's case extremely lacking. If he would rather believe in a mass hallucination that we have no data for, then it reminds me that once again, an atheist will often choose to believe anything rather than to believe the resurrection happened. Any port in a storm will do.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •