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Thread: Book Plunge: Evidence Considered

  1. #31
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Okay. This one is chapter 18. Got confused last time. This one is about if evolution leads to evil.

    The link can be found here.

    ----

    We return to the work of Glenton Jelbert with Evidence Considered. This chapter looks at an essay by Richard Weikart on eugenics and evolution leading to that. I do agree that this does not establish that evolution is false. However, I do think there is a danger that one can take evolution in science and apply it everywhere else. When applied to morality, I do think it leads to great suffering.

    Jelbert acknowledges this. There is a shameful history associated with eugenics. It did lead to forcibly sterilizing many people. Let's also keep in mind Margaret Sanger of Planned Parenthood was a leaning proponent of this and the abortion crisis today is continuing this legacy. Now we don't sterilize the people. We just kill the offspring.*

    Jelbert does say eugenics is not science and the scientific establishment was far from unanimous in supporting it. Yet if it is not science, then why was the scientific establishment involved? We could say perhaps it is not true science, but it is still a scientific topic.*

    Jelbert points to Peter Kropotkin speaking in 1912 at the first international eugenics congress in London.*

    Who were unfit? workers or monied idlers? Those who produced degenerates in slums or those who produced degenerates in palaces? Culture casts a huge influence over the way we live our lives, hopelessly complicating our measures of strength, fitness, and success.
    Now I don't know much about Kropotkin, but I look at this and think that this is just one opinion. Why should I take him as the main one? It would be like saying the existence of Jesus is far from settled in scholarship because Richard Carrier once spoke at the Society of Biblical Literature arguing for mythicism.*

    Jelbert also says that the Bible has been used to lead to great evil. He points to the Salem Witch Trials. This is true. However, I would contend that the witch trials misused the Scripture about a witch not being allowed to live since that applied to the Theocracy of Israel and not America. Also, it's worth noting those lasted a short time and restitution was made.

    In January 1697, the Massachusetts General Court declared a day of fasting for the tragedy of the Salem witch trials; the court later deemed the trials unlawful, and the leading justice Samuel Sewall publicly apologized for his role in the process. The damage to the community lingered, however, even after Massachusetts Colony passed legislation restoring the good names of the condemned and providing financial restitution to their heirs in 1711. Indeed, the vivid and painful legacy of the Salem witch trials endured well into the 20th century, when Arthur Miller dramatized the events of 1692 in his play “The Crucible” (1953), using them as an allegory for the anti-Communist “witch hunts” led by Senator*Joseph McCarthy*in the 1950s.
    Of course, anyone who died wrongfully is still one person too many. Also, as Bruce Sheiman says in*An Atheist Defends Religion

    “Militant atheists seek to discredit religion based on a highly selective reading of history. There was a time not long ago—just a couple of centuries—when the Western world was saturated by religion. Militant atheists are quick to attribute many of the most unfortunate aspects of history to religion, yet rarely concede the immense debt that civilization owes to various monotheist religions, which created some of the world’s greatest literature, art, and architecture; led the movement to abolish slavery; and fostered the development of science and technology. One should not invalidate these achievements merely because they were developed for religious purposes. If much of science was originally a religious endeavor, does that mean science is not valuable? Is religiously motivated charity not genuine? Is art any less beautiful because it was created to express devotion to God? To regret religion is to regret our civilization and its achievements.”*---An Atheist Defends Religion
    And

    “The militant atheists lament that religion is the foremost source of the world’s violence is contradicted by three realities: Most religious organizations do not foster violence; many nonreligious groups do engage in violence; and many religious moral precepts encourage nonvio lence. Indeed, we can confidently assert that if religion was the sole or primary force behind wars, then secular ideologies should be relatively benign by comparison, which history teaches us has not been the case. Revealingly, in his Encyclopedia of Wars, Charles Phillips chronicled a total of 1,763 conflicts throughout history, of which just 123 were categorized as religious. And it is important to note further that over the last century the most brutality has been perpetrated by nonreligious cult figures (Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong-Il, Mao Zedong, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Fidel Castro, Slobodan Milosevic, Robert Mugabe—you get the picture). Thus to attribute the impetus behind violence mainly to religious sentiments is a highly simplistic interpretation of history.”
    And one more

    “Religion’s misdeeds may make for provocative history, but the everyday good works of billions of people is the real history of religion, one that parallels the growth and prosperity of humankind. There are countless examples of individuals lifting themselves out of personal misery through faith. In the lives of these individuals, God is not a delusion, God is not a spell that must be broken—God is indeed great.”
    Jelbert also says the Bible purports to be a moral guide. I would like to know where this is. I do agree the Bible has some morality, but I don't think the purpose of the Bible is to just make us good people. It is to make us Christian people who serve King Jesus and when we do that, we will be good people.

    Jelbert goes on to say that Weikart paints scientists with a broad brush, but Weikart does not do this. He says many today often sound similar to the eugenics movement when talking about genetic technologies. This is true. Many do. Not all.

    Jelbert also says he does not think there is a Christian ethic. If he means there are issues that Christians can disagree on in ethics, that's understandable, but not all are. I don't know many Christians willing to defend pornography or murder or rape. Most all of us condemn abortion as well. Christian ethics are founded on Christian principles such as mankind being in the image of God and the resurrection of Jesus.

    I will say at the end I understand the concern of Weikart and we should take it seriously. Scientists can too often seek to play gods. At the same time, this doesn't show evolution is false. It does show that that which works in science might not work in morality and perhaps if evolution is true, we still should not seek to take it into our own hands.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  2. #32
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    I agree wholeheartedly that virtually anything can be ripped out of context and be made to support just about any idea. Evolutionary theory was adopted and distorted by some of those advocating eugenics -- just like the Bible was. Recently the United Methodist Church issued a formal apology for their role in promoting eugenics.

    As for Weikart... At the risk of poisoning the well, his scholarship is, in a word, lacking, and has been widely criticized which is a shame because he did dig up a lot of interesting stuff.

    I'm always still in trouble again

  3. #33
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Chapter 19.

    The link can be found here.

    -----

    Does Earth's location show intelligent design? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    We're returning to the work of Glenton Jelbert with*Evidence Considered*and today we're going to be talking about Earth's location. This is a response to Jay Richards and Guillerno Gonzalez. Now I don't put much stock in intelligent design arguments and I don't use scientific arguments, but let's see what can be found in the response.

    The ID argument is that we are in a place that is fine-tuned not just for life, but for observing the universe. They could be right about that. Jelbert's work is to show either that we are not or that this doesn't entail any kind of theism. Does he have any other problems though independent of the argument?

    To begin with, Jelbert says perhaps there are other beings out there or even hypothetical beings who could have better ways of observing the universe than we do due to having certain problems with their atmosphere. This is a possibility, but just saying it's possible doesn't really do much to show that Richards and Gonzalez do have a point that with the lifeforms that we do know about, that we are in a good place that does seem to be fit for discovery.

    They also tell us that humans understood the world empirically because God made it easy for us to do so, but Jelbert says that wasn't shown in any of His books or prophets apparently. I find this statement puzzling. No one in the time of the Bible was doubting that God existed. Everyone knew there were deities of some sort. The questions were who are these deities? What do they do? How do they affect the world? How are humans to interact with them?

    To say that the Bible doesn't tell us how to explore the world is like complaining about the writings of Stephen Hawking because they don't tell us how to perform open heart surgery on the sick. Before we even get there, Jelbert says that empiricists have fought superstition and religious folly throughout the ages, sometimes at the cost of their lives. It would be nice to know who these martyrs for empiricism were.

    It should also be pointed out that the Catholic Church has been heavily influenced by Aquinas and Aquinas was an empiricist. The medieval church was happily doing science for centuries before Galileo and Copernicus ever came along. One could point to Bruno, but Bruno was not executed for doing science, but for a number of heretical views he held otherwise. That doesn't justify his death, but let's make sure we don't make him a martyr for science. He wasn't.

    Jelbert also asks if we are in a place for discovery, why is there no evidence for God? Unfortunately, this is only convincing if you think there is no evidence. For people who think there is plenty of evidence and Jelbert's arguments don't cut it, then this won't work. Furthermore, if the argument that is being made works, that could count as evidence.

    We should also point out it's quite ridiculous to say no evidence anyway. Evidence can exist for a position even if that position is false. Theism is not false, but someone can give reasons for them that count as evidence.* One can use evil as evidence for atheism. I think atheism is false, but that does not mean there is no evidence.*

    Jelbert also says the reasoning to a greater intelligence is invalid because all intelligence we have witnessed is attached to a physical brain. I find this interesting because at the start, Jelbert pointed to beings he has no evidence exist to show that maybe they could make different discoveries due to a make-up we don't understand and they're not like us. Now he is arguing that all intelligence must be such and such a way because of, well, us.*

    Also, NDEs I think have shown a form of intelligence outside the material body. If this is so, then that means that the brain is not necessary for intelligence. Jelbert has just given us a brand of inductive reasoning that doesn't work. It's like the case of finding the first black swans. One could have thought all swans were white, but that got disproven. Jelbert can think all intelligence has to be connected to a physical brain, but it can't be demonstrated and if he says there could be other beings at the start of a certain nature that is unknown, he should be open here.*

    Finally, Jelbert says at the end that even if we got a deity, we don't know if it's the one of Christianity or perhaps Odin. Sure. But you know what we do have? We have a deity. If we have that, then atheism is false. Atheists always like to argue against an argument for the existence of God saying it doesn't show which God. Why should anyone think this is convincing? It's like saying that the victim wasn't murdered isn't convincing until you can show who did it or how or why or anything like that. If we know someone was murdered, then that is enough.

    We'll see what happens when we return.*

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