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The Psychological Impact of Complementarian/Patriarchal Theology

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Theologically, I think the 'women as inferior' is an unsustainable position - it simply is not supported by Scripture taken comprehensively.

    Complimentarianism is NOT patriarchy - it could work just as well from a matriarchal POV. It is a response to legitimate objections to the theological problems with how women have been treated historically. It's not necessarily the best response - it has issues - but to call it patriarchal is unfair and misguided.

    I disagree with OBP - I don't think your problem is pride - it's obsession. Pride may play a role or it could be other factors - I don't know you well enough to tell. I do know you aren't here to debate - you're here to preach. Sparky is correct, you aren't willing to listen to anything that disagrees with your premises. That's sad - you're making some silly mistakes because you are so obsessed with a system that has been on life support for twenty years.

    I suspect hatred is an issue with you - anger certainly is - because you are picking rather senseless fights. The guys here don't hate you because you're a girl - they are getting annoyed because you trash them constantly. I'm getting annoyed because it's a one note song - and I actually agree with the central premise! Mind you, I think you argue it atrociously - truth matters much more than how I feel about it - but I don't see Scripture supporting a true patriarchy so on that point I agree.

    As for the thread premise, who cares? It sounds like another self serving study done to beat a dead horse. IF - which I doubt - God truly wishes that we obey men, then that's exactly what we should do regardless of the psychological impact. The important question isn't how does it impact us - it's IS THIS TRUE.

    Neither male nor female... All the same in Christ Jesus - nope, doesn't appear to be true. So, that being the case, the problem isn't theology - it's erroneous theology. If that's the case, you're making the problem worse by arguing from psychology and feelings rather than theology and Scripture.
    To make a note here: I have no problem with women in ministry. I don't think the bible is clearly against it. It mentions that a pastor needs to be the husband of one wife, but that seems to be just an assumption that the pastor will be a man and the command is against him having more than one wife. It isn't a clear command that women should not be pastors.

    One of the best sermons I ever heard and still remember to this day was given at the theologyweb convention by Teallaura! If she were a pastor in my town I would go to her church!

    To me the only restriction is in marriage: the husband is to be the head of the family. But he is never to treat his wife as a second-class citizen, but as his "vice-president" so to speak. And he is to serve her like Jesus served the church. Cherish and love and protect. Not boss her around like a slave.

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    • #17
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        I still have the bulletin from that service.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          IF - which I doubt - God truly wishes that we obey men, then that's exactly what we should do regardless of the psychological impact. The important question isn't how does it impact us - it's IS THIS TRUE.

          Neither male nor female... All the same in Christ Jesus - nope, doesn't appear to be true. So, that being the case, the problem isn't theology - it's erroneous theology. If that's the case, you're making the problem worse by arguing from psychology and feelings rather than theology and Scripture.

          Preach it, sister! Amen!
          Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

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          • #20
            Wildflower -- Welcome to the forums.

            My comment isn't going to be about you. The problem here isn't you and it's gaslighting to suggest otherwise. You aren't the one teaching through words and actions that half of the human race exists to serve and be subordinate to the other. Of course that's harmful.

            My comment is going to be about this.

            And yet...I cannot leave the relationships, the people who look up to me (and my family) in my church. To leave would cause more damage.
            You're wrong. Yes, you CAN leave.

            You may not want to leave. You may not want to have to explain to your family why you can no longer remain in a church that has shackled half of Christ's body. You may not want to say that you're done subjecting yourself to an unbiblical theology of female subordination.

            But you can leave. You can leave any day you want. You can leave this Sunday morning if you want.

            And if going to a church with a biblical theology of women in ministry causes division in your family, well, Jesus had a few things to say about that (Luke 12:51-53).

            I'm so sorry for your pain. Feel free to private message me if you want to talk.
            "It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

            Weighted Glory | Christians for Biblical Equality | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              The psychological impact of egalitarianism
              Psychological impact of egalitarianism: see Wallflower!!

              At first, happy, content in service of church!

              Then after egalitarianism, becomes prideful, angry, 'why can't I lead!?', 'why aren't you people on internet supporting rebellion of mine?!?!!!?!', 'I am victim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'.

              And ending is almost like stereotype, wonder-woman-avatar poster says "destroy relationships of yours further!!! you go grrrrrrrrl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
              Last edited by demi-conservative; 09-23-2017, 07:19 AM.
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MsJack View Post
                Wildflower -- Welcome to the forums.

                My comment isn't going to be about you. The problem here isn't you and it's gaslighting to suggest otherwise. You aren't the one teaching through words and actions that half of the human race exists to serve and be subordinate to the other. Of course that's harmful.

                My comment is going to be about this.


                You're wrong. Yes, you CAN leave.

                You may not want to leave. You may not want to have to explain to your family why you can no longer remain in a church that has shackled half of Christ's body. You may not want to say that you're done subjecting yourself to an unbiblical theology of female subordination.

                But you can leave. You can leave any day you want. You can leave this Sunday morning if you want.

                And if going to a church with a biblical theology of women in ministry causes division in your family, well, Jesus had a few things to say about that (Luke 12:51-53).

                I'm so sorry for your pain. Feel free to private message me if you want to talk.
                I don't see anyone here teaching the underlined.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by MsJack View Post
                  Wildflower -- Welcome to the forums.

                  My comment isn't going to be about you. The problem here isn't you and it's gaslighting to suggest otherwise. You aren't the one teaching through words and actions that half of the human race exists to serve and be subordinate to the other. Of course that's harmful.

                  My comment is going to be about this.


                  You're wrong. Yes, you CAN leave.

                  You may not want to leave. You may not want to have to explain to your family why you can no longer remain in a church that has shackled half of Christ's body. You may not want to say that you're done subjecting yourself to an unbiblical theology of female subordination.

                  But you can leave. You can leave any day you want. You can leave this Sunday morning if you want.
                  Respectfully, leaving is not always the best option; it is often merely the most selfish option. In your case, you were absolutely right to leave, but this case bears little resemblance to yours.
                  And if going to a church with a biblical theology of women in ministry causes division in your family, well, Jesus had a few things to say about that (Luke 12:51-53).
                  That Jesus warned he would bring division does not mean that division itself is good, or that we should divide over non-essentials.
                  Last edited by One Bad Pig; 09-23-2017, 12:11 PM.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MsJack View Post
                    The problem here isn't you and it's gaslighting to suggest otherwise.
                    Yeah, if you don't agree with her you're engaging in psychological abuse.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

                      That Jesus warned he would bring division does mean that division itself is good, or that we should divide over non-essentials.
                      I think you meant "doesn't?"

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I think you meant "doesn't?"
                        Yes. I have no idea how the heck my fingers skipped the negative I was intending to put in there.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          I don't see anyone here teaching the underlined.
                          I guess you're not reading Darth Executor's posts.

                          But yes, complementarian and/or patriarchal theology do teach that women are subordinate to and exist to serve men. Not always directly, but they do. Some complementarians even teach that women's subordination is eternal will continue into the next life (Kevin DeYoung, Mark David Walton, etc). Of course that's emotionally damaging and the OP is right to take issue with it.

                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Respectfully, leaving is not always the best option; it is often merely the most selfish option. In your case, you were absolutely right to leave, but this case bears little resemblance to yours.
                          We are talking about leaving a church, not leaving a marriage. I'm not sure what this has to do with my case as I've pretty much never left a church.

                          I just wanted to stress to her that leaving her church absolutely is an option. Why wouldn't it be?

                          Is it the best option? Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes it's better to stay and try to make things better.

                          Me personally, I would absolutely leave a church that was hindering me from serving God. No question.
                          "It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

                          Weighted Glory | Christians for Biblical Equality | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MsJack View Post
                            We are talking about leaving a church, not leaving a marriage. I'm not sure what this has to do with my case as I've pretty much never left a church.

                            I just wanted to stress to her that leaving her church absolutely is an option. Why wouldn't it be?

                            Is it the best option? Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes it's better to stay and try to make things better.

                            Me personally, I would absolutely leave a church that was hindering me from serving God. No question.
                            You're the one who made the comparison. The question is, is the church "hindering her from serving God," or is she putting her own wants above the church's?
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #29
                              I just wanted to point out that Jesus washed his disciples' feet. Men are to be the servant and leader. At the same time. Women weren't created to be the slaves of men. Extreme egalitarianism needs to get over thinking that we complementarians think that to be so.
                              Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                                I just wanted to point out that Jesus washed his disciples' feet. Men are to be the servant and leader. At the same time. Women weren't created to be the slaves of men. Extreme egalitarianism needs to get over thinking that we complementarians think that to be so.
                                I thought we were designed to serve one another (Men and Women)
                                A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                                George Bernard Shaw

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