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Future ministry opportunities for disgraced televangelists?

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  • #31
    Seems this thread sorta petered out

    I'm always still in trouble again

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    • #32
      Some of these disgraced televangelists may have a petrifying time at the Last Judgment.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Hey Teal, did you mean Peter?


        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Some of these disgraced televangelists may have a petrifying time at the Last Judgment.
          This comment was underrated.

          And I agree with Jed's comment earlier. Instead of money, let's make it about sex. What if you had somebody who was convicted of molesting kids, and served their time, and got back out? They're forgiven but I would hope no church would ever put them in charge of children's ministry after. Some people just don't have the ability to handle power and once they've demonstrated that lack of ability, they can serve, but not in a grand leadership capacity. There have been too many leaders, like Jimmy Swaggart, who repented and went back to the same habits. The stakes are too high.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #35
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            This comment was underrated.

            And I agree with Jed's comment earlier. Instead of money, let's make it about sex. What if you had somebody who was convicted of molesting kids, and served their time, and got back out? They're forgiven but I would hope no church would ever put them in charge of children's ministry after. Some people just don't have the ability to handle power and once they've demonstrated that lack of ability, they can serve, but not in a grand leadership capacity. There have been too many leaders, like Jimmy Swaggart, who repented and went back to the same habits. The stakes are too high.
            Putting a recovering alcoholic in a bar is cruelty, not restoration. No, sticking people back in the same position, especially without safeguards, isn't wise - or sane.

            At the same time, you should have policies ALREADY in place long before you have to worry about trusting a reformed embezzler or a child molester.

            You don't throw people away - and you don't throw them back into the fire. What's sad is that we can't even try to find the middle ground that bathes the baby and discards only the bathwater.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Putting a recovering alcoholic in a bar is cruelty, not restoration. No, sticking people back in the same position, especially without safeguards, isn't wise - or sane.

              At the same time, you should have policies ALREADY in place long before you have to worry about trusting a reformed embezzler or a child molester.

              You don't throw people away - and you don't throw them back into the fire. What's sad is that we can't even try to find the middle ground that bathes the baby and discards only the bathwater.
              The context of my OP wasn't any sort of middle ground. It was seeing televangelists who had a very public Icarus-like fall simply going back to the same position they were before. These were people jumping right back into the fire, so to speak.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                The context of my OP wasn't any sort of middle ground. It was seeing televangelists who had a very public Icarus-like fall simply going back to the same position they were before. These were people jumping right back into the fire, so to speak.
                I'm aware of that - and I addressed it previously.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  If I am remembering correctly, Jim Bakker really repented and turned his life around after the PTL scandal. I think he is still a bit out there on the end times prophesy thing but from what I have seen (been a few years now) he really repented, admitted his crimes, served his time, and has not used his ministry as a scam since and is no longer a prosperity teacher. He said, "The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushed to think that I led so many people astray. I was appalled that I could have been so wrong, and I was deeply grateful that God had not struck me dead as a false prophet!"
                  That sentiment does give me pause, that someone could study the Bible for a lifetime a discover that they were wrong on what it says. Jimmy Swaggart also came to a new understanding of scripture, deciding that the hierarchical nature of a denomination was not in the Bible (he refused to step down from his role as head of his ministry). And were surrounded by people he thought they knew and understood the faith.

                  While I also think Bakker did repent, I also wonder what the desire for a position of prominence played in his repentance. It seems no one really wants to play rhythm guitar behind Jesus.... (and if anyone admits to catching that line from Oak Ridge Boys, then we all know they are really old!)

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                  • #39
                    I would like to echo a lot of the underlying things that have been said here. These people fall into two camps that are difficult to discern... 1. they sincerely believe that they are preaching the Gospel and they just got "too big" for their own good. or 2. they were only interested in making money.

                    IMO, the 2nd category isn't much to worry about because they will always do what serves them best. They are not sincere so its not like they will have any sense of introspection for what they did. They will be more worried about repairing their image to start making money again.

                    The first category is more nuanced but I think it isn't that complicated. Imagine yourself and being one of these people who, to borrow an analogy from another poster, flew too close to the sun. At some point their pride superseded their commitment to Christ and led them astray. I can see this happening easily and gradually.

                    If this happened to me, I would never want another run at it. You have already proven to yourself that it was too much for you to handle and it came off the rails. Be contend to just play your part in the background because what are your motivations really for trying to reclaim the leadership position. Is it for His glorification or for your own?

                    I would argue that if you sought to reclaim the very position that led you astray in the first place, you haven't learned your lesson.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by element771 View Post
                      I would like to echo a lot of the underlying things that have been said here. These people fall into two camps that are difficult to discern... 1. they sincerely believe that they are preaching the Gospel and they just got "too big" for their own good. or 2. they were only interested in making money.

                      IMO, the 2nd category isn't much to worry about because they will always do what serves them best. They are not sincere so its not like they will have any sense of introspection for what they did. They will be more worried about repairing their image to start making money again.

                      The first category is more nuanced but I think it isn't that complicated. Imagine yourself and being one of these people who, to borrow an analogy from another poster, flew too close to the sun. At some point their pride superseded their commitment to Christ and led them astray. I can see this happening easily and gradually.

                      If this happened to me, I would never want another run at it. You have already proven to yourself that it was too much for you to handle and it came off the rails. Be contend to just play your part in the background because what are your motivations really for trying to reclaim the leadership position. Is it for His glorification or for your own?

                      I would argue that if you sought to reclaim the very position that led you astray in the first place, you haven't learned your lesson.
                      But that wasn't the question - it's not 'should we let them do the same exact thing again' but 'should they have any such role again'? I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. I think it's best evaluated case by case with a weather eye toward not putting them in temptations way but not throwing out the talents they are supposed to use for the Kingdom, either - when the desire to serve is legitimate.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        But that wasn't the question - it's not 'should we let them do the same exact thing again' but 'should they have any such role again'? I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. I think it's best evaluated case by case with a weather eye toward not putting them in temptations way but not throwing out the talents they are supposed to use for the Kingdom, either - when the desire to serve is legitimate.
                        Ironically, I was looking into the accusations against Ravi Zacharias regarding the inappropriate text messages with another man's wife. I read the text of the messages and it doesn't look good.

                        What would you suggest he / we do regarding him?

                        I agree that he has a talent that shouldn't be wasted but I also think that he is tainted in some ways.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by element771 View Post
                          Ironically, I was looking into the accusations against Ravi Zacharias regarding the inappropriate text messages with another man's wife. I read the text of the messages and it doesn't look good.

                          What would you suggest he / we do regarding him?

                          I agree that he has a talent that shouldn't be wasted but I also think that he is tainted in some ways.
                          1) Judge fairly - which is next to impossible on the cherry picked, lousy procedure evidence that one finds in the media and the Internet.
                          2) IF (accusations are NOT guilt) there is really an issue, evaluate it - again fairly and again, not in a trial by media.
                          3) IF that proves positive, evaluate how it affects the ministry, if at all (if every sin is gonna disqualify, we're going to have to wait for the Second Coming to have leadership).
                          4) IF it affects ministry, evaluate the impact.

                          THEN:

                          Where is the person in their walk? have they repented? Are they even ready for consideration to return? Once they are, have a plan for how that is going to be happening - if at all (again, case by case - in some cases, it may not be wise - or possible).
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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                          • #43
                            I thought it was a case where a woman sent Zacharias an unsolicited image, out of the blue, and he blocked her. Or is this a different incident altogether?
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              I thought it was a case where a woman sent Zacharias an unsolicited image, out of the blue, and he blocked her. Or is this a different incident altogether?
                              http://www.christianitytoday.com/new...-bio-rzim.html

                              If she started escalating with more sexually suggestive messages/pictures and he didn't cut her off on the spot, then I suspect there's more to it than just him being preyed upon by two con artists (which I think he was).

                              Citing such concerns about “clergy sexual misconduct,” blogger Julie Anne Smith on Friday published emails given to her by Zacharias’s accuser back in February, before the settlement. Smith explained that she was greatly troubled that “a victim’s voice is silenced” while Zacharias was “able to give his narrative” in the lawsuit. “Nothing is preventing this from happening again,” she wrote. “... Unless someone speaks out publicly, this case will be lost in the shuffle.”

                              The images included an October 2016 email in which the woman told Zacharias she was going to disclose their “secret and its soul-searing shame” to her husband; in another image showing four short emails, the apologist appears to reply mere hours later by threatening suicide. “If you betray me here, I will have no option but to bid this world goodbye, I promise,” he wrote, according to the image, later calling it “the most dark and accursed day of my life.”
                              The con wouldn't have worked if he hadn't taken the bait, to some extent. Which, between these emails and his bizarre settling with nondisclosure agreements and everything else makes him look pretty guilty.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                1) Judge fairly - which is next to impossible on the cherry picked, lousy procedure evidence that one finds in the media and the Internet.
                                2) IF (accusations are NOT guilt) there is really an issue, evaluate it - again fairly and again, not in a trial by media.
                                3) IF that proves positive, evaluate how it affects the ministry, if at all (if every sin is gonna disqualify, we're going to have to wait for the Second Coming to have leadership).
                                4) IF it affects ministry, evaluate the impact.

                                THEN:

                                Where is the person in their walk? have they repented? Are they even ready for consideration to return? Once they are, have a plan for how that is going to be happening - if at all (again, case by case - in some cases, it may not be wise - or possible).
                                He's an apologist, can he argue or not? The rest is dressing IMO. Maybe do it under a pen name if his actual name gets tainted but it's not like he needs to be in intimate contact with anyone to do apologetics. This is also why I'm opposed to apologists starting "ministries", except for Holding most of them end up trying to stretch into clergy duties and bite more than they can chew.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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