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Pray to/worship the Lord Jesus or not?

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  • Pray to/worship the Lord Jesus or not?

    A. Worship: Worship includes prayer, fasting, church service, participating in gospel ordinances, and other practices that show devotion and love for God.
    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/worship?lang=eng

    Since worship includes prayer I was wondering how the Mormons reconcile the following citations concerning prayer/worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.


    B. Pray to/worship only the Father
    1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the Scriptures say about worshiping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense - the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God first, the Creator (Bruce McConkie, speech at BYU, March 2, 1982).
    2. "...some misguided members of the Church may 'begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed' with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father..." (The Ensign, June 1998, page 59).
    3. When we pray, we pray to God through Jesus Christ. (Thomas Monson, Current LDS President)
    http://thomasmonson.com/716/how-to-pray


    C. Pray to/worship the Lord Jesus
    1. And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in no wise be cast out (2 Nephi 25:29).
    Based on 2 Nephi 25:29 can one really worship the Lord Jesus with all their might, mind, and strength, and their whole soul without praying to Him since worship includes praying?
    2. The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship." Later McConkie writes, "It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, Second Edition, c. 1979, page 848).
    3. Tell students that today we will discuss more fully why we worship Jesus Christ.
    Have a student read the following statement by President Gordon B. Hinckley: “Be strong in your testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the chief cornerstone of this great work. Of His divinity and reality I bear solemn witness. He is the Lamb without blemish, who was offered for the sins of the world. Through His pain and because of His suffering I find reconciliation and eternal life. He is my Teacher, my Exemplar, my Friend, and my Savior whom I love and worship as the Redeemer of the world” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1992, 75; or Ensign, Nov. 1992, 52).
    http://www.lds.org/manual/new-testam...n-4-5?lang=eng


    D. To Worship or Not to Worship?
    There is some confusion in LDS sources about whether Christians should worship Jesus Christ. In a BYU speech dated November 14, 1967, Theodore M. Burton made these statements: “But we worship Jesus Christ as our God, the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, our living Advocate with the Father…. there are no more ardent worshipers of Jesus Christ, the Lord, than the so-called Mormons” (“We Worship Jesus Christ,” in Outstanding Stories by General Authorities, ed. Leon R. Hartshorn, 3:50). According to Stephen Robinson, “Though all the world may say that Latter-day Saints do not know or love or worship Jesus Christ, I know that we do” (Are Mormons Christians? [Bookcraft, 1991], 114).
    Despite these clear statements, other LDS sources deny that Mormons worship Jesus Christ. Charles W. Penrose, president of the LDS Church, made the following statement in General Conference in April 1915:
    There need not be any confusion in our minds regarding these important things. It is important that we should know something about the Being whom we worship—the Father, for it is the Father whom we worship. We do not pray to the Son nor to the Holy Ghost; we pray to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son, under the influence and guidance of the Holy Ghost.
    Also reflecting this confusion are contradictory statements by Bruce McConkie. On the one hand, he stated:
    Worship consists in paying divine honors to a deity. This religious reverence and homage falls into two categories—true worship and false worship, the one based on gospel truth and leading to salvation, the other consisting of an intermixture of truth and error and leading to damnation. The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship…. No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son” (Mormon Doctrine [2d ed., 1966], 848).
    On the other hand, in a notorious speech in 1982 McConkie adamantly denied that Mormons worship Jesus.
    “We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost…. Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ, or the Blessed Virgin, or St. Genevieve or along the beads of a rosary” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship with the Lord” [BYU Devotional, March 2, 1982], 5, 20, emphasis in original).
    McConkie argued that any “worship” of Jesus would be in a different, lesser sense: “I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator”.
    http://mit.irr.org/prayer-trinity-and-nature-of-god
    Last edited by foudroyant; 04-19-2014, 08:07 PM.

  • #2
    In my perspective being LDS, the issue is situational. There may be times when it is perfectly fine to direct our worship to Jesus but I believe Jesus himself would prefer that we focus our worship to God the Father. Since the Father and Son are so united in everything anyway, if one worships the Father, they are also worshipping the Son. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost come as a package. One can't selectively worship one without the others. If you love one, you love them all. If you hate one, you hate them all.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
      In my perspective being LDS, the issue is situational. There may be times when it is perfectly fine to direct our worship to Jesus but I believe Jesus himself would prefer that we focus our worship to God the Father. Since the Father and Son are so united in everything anyway, if one worships the Father, they are also worshipping the Son. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost come as a package. One can't selectively worship one without the others. If you love one, you love them all. If you hate one, you hate them all.

      Do you think McConkie, Penrose, Monson and those responsible for the publication of Ensign would agree with you that prayer could be directed to the Lord Jesus?
      Last edited by foudroyant; 04-18-2014, 01:25 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        Do you think McConkie, Penrose, Monson and those responsible for the publication of Ensign would agree with you that prayer could be directed to the Lord Jesus?
        They would have to, because the Book of Mormon (and the Bible) have situations whereby people who are personally in Christ's presence bow down to worship Him. Granted, these responses were often reactionary, but I believe that they were warranted. I would react the same way, and Jesus did not stop or forbid those who react this way.

        When it comes to our daily prayer life, McConkie, Penrose, Monson , etc. do not want to contradict what the Son of God taught. And what the Savior taught on repeated occasions is this: When we pray and worship, we are to pray to and worship the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

        The Bible gives us the pattern for our prayers in the Lord's Prayer found in Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4. In these accounts the Lord teaches us to address our prayers to
        "Our Father which art in heaven." The Lord also instructed us on several occasions to ask in his name:

        "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14.

        "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16.

        And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. John 16:23-24


        I think the issue comes down to this. While I believe that God still respects and responds to prayer directed to the Son, it would be preferrabe if we followed Christ's counsel.

        Are we going to respect Christ's teachings on this matter? Or are we going to defy the Savior's will?


        -7up

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          [COLOR="#0000FF"]I think the issue comes down to this. While I believe that God still respects and responds to prayer directed to the Son, it would be preferrabe if we followed Christ's counsel.

          Are we going to respect Christ's teachings on this matter? Or are we going to defy the Savior's will?
          How can God "respect" prayer to the Son if we show disrespect and defy what the Son said on this matter?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            How can God "respect" prayer to the Son if we show disrespect and defy what the Son said on this matter?
            When people do it out of ignorance.

            In those cases, it is not out of defiance. But it is done because people don't know any better. God knows the difference.

            -7up

            Comment


            • #7
              Can you please explain how someone can pray to the Son out of ignorance?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                Can you please explain how someone can pray to the Son out of ignorance?
                They have not realized that there was a specific way that Jesus asked us to pray. Maybe they have not had the conversation that we are having now.

                -7up

                Comment


                • #9
                  As an aside, should we really consider this topic a purely "Mormon" issue?

                  Surely, there are Christians outside the LDS church who understand the teaching that we should pray to the Father in the name of the Son. This is true from early Christianity:



                  "Only God the Father is worthy of receiving prayer and adoration; not even the Son, though we pray in the name of Christ." Origen [ca. A.D. 250 ]

                  “the Father alone is ho theos; the Son is simply theos…. Prayer can be offered only to the Father; prayer directed to the Son is not prayer in the fullest meaning of the word.” Origen [ca. A.D. 250 ]

                  “’Father’ was made known to us by our Lord…, who knew whose Son he is…. When he taught us to pray he did not say, ‘When you pray, say ‘O God Unoriginate….,’ but rather ‘Our Father….’ Athanasius (A.D. 300-373)

                  “In prayer one should not put the Father in the place of the Son, nor put the Son in the place of the Father; when standing at the altar one should always address the prayer to God the Father.” - The Council of Carthage in A.D. 397

                  “At the service of the altar, prayer shall always be addressed to the Father,” - LaCugna at Council of Hippo A.D. 393

                  “The classic liturgical prayers were exclusively addressed to the Father ‘through’ Christ living and reigning with the Father" — Jesuit Frans Jozef van Beeck at the Council of Hippo in A.D. 393,


                  -7up

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    LDS affirm that worship includes prayer.

                    Worship: Worship includes prayer, fasting, church service, participating in gospel ordinances, and other practices that show devotion and love for God.
                    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/worship?lang=eng

                    Please see my questions below each citation.



                    And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in no wise be cast out (2 Nephi 25:29).
                    Question #1: Based on 2 Nephi 25:29 can one really worship the Lord Jesus with all their might, mind, and strength, and their whole soul without praying to Him since worship includes praying?

                    The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship." Later McConkie writes, "It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, Second Edition, c. 1979, page 848).
                    Question #2: Was McConkie wrong to affirm that it is "proper" to worship the Son?

                    Tell students that today we will discuss more fully why we worship Jesus Christ.
                    Have a student read the following statement by President Gordon B. Hinckley: “Be strong in your testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the chief cornerstone of this great work. Of His divinity and reality I bear solemn witness. He is the Lamb without blemish, who was offered for the sins of the world. Through His pain and because of His suffering I find reconciliation and eternal life. He is my Teacher, my Exemplar, my Friend, and my Savior whom I love and worship as the Redeemer of the world” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1992, 75; or Ensign, Nov. 1992, 52).
                    http://www.lds.org/manual/new-testam...n-4-5?lang=eng
                    Question #3: Was Hinckley wrong to affirm that he worships the Son and that all other LDS should as well?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      General Definition for worship: the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

                      The LDS teaching of the kinds of activities which are included in worship: Worship includes prayer, fasting, church service, participating in gospel ordinances, and other practices that show devotion and love for God.

                      Prayer is included when you look at all of the possible aspects of worship, but you are looking into a more specific aspect of worship, one that was defined more specifically by Jesus in the New Covenant. Indeed, Jesus Christ IS included in the prayers of every Latter-Day Saint. The teaching is: Pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, and by means of the Holy Spirit.


                      And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in no wise be cast out (2 Nephi 25:29).
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      Question #1: Based on 2 Nephi 25:29 can one really worship the Lord Jesus with all their might, mind, and strength, and their whole soul without praying to Him since worship includes praying?
                      For starters, Nephi is coming from a perspective (along with his audience) which had somewhat of an Old Testament understanding of Deity under the Law of Moses. Either way, it was understood, as is found in the general definition of worship, that Jesus is to be adored, revered, respected, and followed. "The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity" is absolutely included with this. The teachings that we live by are provided by Christ, the Holy One of Israel.

                      The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship." Later McConkie writes, "It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, Second Edition, c. 1979, page 848).
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      Question #2: Was McConkie wrong to affirm that it is "proper" to worship the Son?
                      Again, it is proper to worship the Son, but Jesus Christ is not the same person as God the Father; therefore, the way Christ taught us to worship shows a difference between the worship of God the Father and a worship of the Son of God.

                      Tell students that today we will discuss more fully why we worship Jesus Christ.
                      Have a student read the following statement by President Gordon B. Hinckley: “Be strong in your testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is the chief cornerstone of this great work. Of His divinity and reality I bear solemn witness. He is the Lamb without blemish, who was offered for the sins of the world. Through His pain and because of His suffering I find reconciliation and eternal life. He is my Teacher, my Exemplar, my Friend, and my Savior whom I love and worship as the Redeemer of the world” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1992, 75; or Ensign, Nov. 1992, 52).

                      http://www.lds.org/manual/new-testam...n-4-5?lang=eng
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      Question #3: Was Hinckley wrong to affirm that he worships the Son and that all other LDS should as well?
                      So, it appears that you have a hard time understanding that LDS can worship Jesus Christ (have reverence, adoration, etc), but prayers are directed TO the Father IN THE NAME of the Son.

                      Is that what you are having difficulty comprehending?


                      -7up

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1. LDS believe that only the Father is to be prayed to.
                        2. LDS believe that there are other ways to worship the Son without praying directly to Him.

                        Are both of these correct?
                        -----------------------------------------
                        Why does the Book of Mormon have the Lord Jesus being prayed to?
                        And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. (3 Nephi 19:18)

                        This also holds true when He is not in their physical presence:
                        And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said: Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world. Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words. Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them. And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one. And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire. (3 Nephi 19:19-24)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          1. LDS believe that only the Father is to be prayed to.
                          2. LDS believe that there are other ways to worship the Son without praying directly to Him.

                          Are both of these correct?
                          Yes.

                          This is simple. In the LDS church, we pray in the way that Jesus Christ taught us to pray. We pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ.

                          -7up

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                            Why does the Book of Mormon have the Lord Jesus being prayed to?
                            And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. (3 Nephi 19:18)
                            This also holds true when He is not in their physical presence
                            Wow.

                            Let's go over this passage nice and slow. (By the way, they prayed in this way NOT because Jesus taught them to, it was just a natural reaction to being in His presence, something that we all find to be understandable.) Let's see here:


                            "And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God." (3 Nephi 19:18)

                            These people had surrounded Jesus in order to adore Him and be near him. Therefore, Jesus moves from the middle of the crowd, off to the side, in order to teach them about prayer and about the Holy Spirit. First he walks a short distance away:

                            "And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said: Father, I thank thee ..."

                            Jesus did not leave their presence completely, but only "went a little way off". Jesus had certain purposes here. One of them was to teach them HOW to pray, because they had not grasped the concept. He starts a prayer, and he starts it by addressing the Father. He is giving an example of how to pray.

                            Soon after, you see this little section:


                            "Father, ... thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them. "

                            You see what he says here? He is essentially giving an excuse to the Father on their behalf (albeit an acceptable excuse), because they are praying to Jesus. And Jesus explains that they are doing it because the resurrected Christ is in their presence.

                            By even mentioning it this way, Jesus is implying that He expects them NOT to pray to Jesus when he is out of their presence. Instead He expects them to pray the way that He teaches them and in the way He provided example. It is clear in the Bible (I already cited the passages) and clear as well in the Book of Mormon, because Jesus taught the Nephites to pray to our Heavenly Father in his name:



                            "And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name." (3 Nephi 20:30-31)

                            "And verily I say unto you, whatsoever things ye shall ask the Father in my name shall be given unto you." (3 Nephi 27:2, 3 Nephi 27:28-29)



                            How you, foudroyant, can possibly misunderstand this is quite beyond me. Jesus CLEARLY taught us how to pray when he revealed the New Covenant. We don't need to question it. We just do it.

                            Can an exception be made when in the actual presence of the Son of God? Yes. Even your friend Bruce R. McConkie described this:


                            "The only scriptural instances in which prayers were addressed directly to the Son were when—and because!—that Holy Being, as a resurrected personage, was standing before the petitioners."

                            As you can see, McConkie surely had this very same passage, and a couple others, in mind when he said this.



                            Tell me this foudroyant. Can you give the LDS a good reason why we should NOT pray in the way that Jesus taught us to pray?

                            Perhaps that will move this conversation along in a meaningful way.



                            -7up
                            Last edited by seven7up; 04-22-2014, 02:59 AM. Reason: quick addition

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK thank you. So I then understand that the LDS believe it was/is ok to pray to the Lord Jesus as long as he was/is not out of their physical presence.

                              Is this correct?
                              -----------------------------------
                              The Bible records prayers that are directly to the Lord Jesus. Matthew 6:9/Luke 11:2 does not at all teach that prayers can not be directed to the Lord Jesus.
                              Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name (Matthew 6:9, NASB)
                              a. Mark Bird: In light of the scriptural data that support all sorts of prayer to Jesus, what do we do with Jesus’ instructions to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9)? Does the fact that the model prayer addresses the Father and not the Son mean that we are never to address the Son (or the Spirit) in prayer? No. By giving us the model prayer, Jesus was not limiting our prayers to a certain structure or verbiage. Otherwise, we would need to eliminate using the expression “in Jesus’ name” in prayer since that is not in the Lord’s Prayer. We would also need to eliminate thanksgiving from our prayers, since that does not show up in the Lord’s Prayer. But obviously, we should give thanks to God (I Thess. 5:19). Christ's words, "Our Father which art in Heaven" do not keep us from praying to Jesus any more than his words "Give us our daily bread" keep us from praying for something to drink. And the Lord’s Prayer does not keep us from petitioning the Son any more than Christ’s instructions to “enter into the closet and pray to your Father in secret” (Matt 6:6) keep us from praying in a public setting. We learn a great deal about prayer from the model prayer, but it does not teach us everything we should know about talking to God. It is appropriate to pray to the Father directly; the Lord’s Prayer clearly shows that. However, just because we are permitted to pray, and even commanded to pray to the Father, that doesn’t mean we are not permitted to pray to the Son.
                              http://www.wesleyantheology.com/shou...-to-jesus.html
                              b. We also see that the Lord's Prayer is recorded by Luke (11:2 f.) and we know that Luke records several prayers to the Lord Jesus so it does not mean that prayers are not to be rendered unto the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60; 9:14, 21; 22:16).
                              c. Paul taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to (1 Corinthians 1:2; Romans 10:13; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Thessalonians 3:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 3:16; 2 Timothy 2:22; 2 Timothy 4:18).
                              d. Peter taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to (1 Peter 3:12; 2 Peter 3:18).
                              e. John taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to (John 5:23; Revelation 1:5-6).
                              Last edited by foudroyant; 04-22-2014, 06:24 PM.

                              Comment

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