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Thread: Implications of Acts 4:27-28

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    tWebber
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    Implications of Acts 4:27-28

    Acts 4:27-28 says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

    Just to give you the context, Peter and John were arrested for preaching the gospel and they were arrested by the local authorities who told them to stop preaching. When Peter and John were released, they talked about this with their companions and they start to pray. The passage that I quoted is an excerpt from their prayer. According to what was said in the prayer, Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel did what God predestined to occur.

    I was just wondering about this predestination. Does this imply that God caused them to sin? Does this imply that God made a plan that they would sin? Would it be correct to say that God did more than just permit them to do certain things?

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Acts 4:27-28 says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

    Just to give you the context, Peter and John were arrested for preaching the gospel and they were arrested by the local authorities who told them to stop preaching. When Peter and John were released, they talked about this with their companions and they start to pray. The passage that I quoted is an excerpt from their prayer. According to what was said in the prayer, Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel did what God predestined to occur.

    I was just wondering about this predestination. Does this imply that God caused them to sin? Does this imply that God made a plan that they would sin? Would it be correct to say that God did more than just permit them to do certain things?
    Given the context of the rest of scripture, I'd say that it implies no more than that Jesus was predestined to be killed for our sake. Given fallen humanity, IMO no more was needed; the leaders in place would be inclined to do what they did simply because of that.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    A related verse to this question is John 13:27, where Satan enters into Judas during the Last Supper. Previously, John 13:2 stated that the devil had "prompted" Judas to betray Jesus. I don't read that as meaning that Judas was forced to betray Jesus. After all, the devil had tempted Jesus, and Jesus was able to say no. (It's also worth noting that Judas had already been stealing money so he was hardly an innocent disciple possessed here.)
    I want something good to die for to make it beautiful to live.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Given the context of the rest of scripture, I'd say that it implies no more than that Jesus was predestined to be killed for our sake. Given fallen humanity, IMO no more was needed; the leaders in place would be inclined to do what they did simply because of that.
    If they were already inclined to kill Jesus, what difference does the predestination make?

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    A related verse to this question is John 13:27, where Satan enters into Judas during the Last Supper. Previously, John 13:2 stated that the devil had "prompted" Judas to betray Jesus. I don't read that as meaning that Judas was forced to betray Jesus. After all, the devil had tempted Jesus, and Jesus was able to say no. (It's also worth noting that Judas had already been stealing money so he was hardly an innocent disciple possessed here.)
    That's right. The devil tempted Judas to sin, but not force him.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    If they were already inclined to kill Jesus, what difference does the predestination make?
    I'm not sure what you're asking.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I'm not sure what you're asking.
    If they would have done it even if God did not predestine Jesus to be killed, then what effect would this have? God predestining Jesus to be killed.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    If they would have done it even if God did not predestine Jesus to be killed, then what effect would this have? God predestining Jesus to be killed.
    I think there's some confusion here. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself sufficiently. I'm saying that whatever leaders were in place would have been inclined (given mankind's propensity to sin after the Fall) to kill Jesus, not that "specific leaders x, y, and z were predestined to kill Jesus."

    Does that help?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  9. Amen Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Does this imply that God caused them to sin?
    No, God uses secondary causes, such as the devil, as was mentioned.

    Does this imply that God made a plan that they would sin?
    Yes, "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?" (Lam. 3:37-38)

    Would it be correct to say that God did more than just permit them to do certain things?
    Yes.

    Gen. 50:20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."

    "The text says, 'You meant evil against me.' Evil is a feminine singular noun. Then it says, 'God meant it for good.' The word 'it' is a feminine singular suffix that can only agree with the antecedent feminine singular noun, 'evil.' And the verb 'meant' is the same past tense in both cases. You meant evil against me in the past, as you were doing it. And God meant that very evil, not as evil, but as good in the past as you were doing it. And to make this perfectly clear, Psalm 105:17 says about Joseph's coming to Egypt, '[God] sent a man before them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave.' God sent him. God did not find him there owing to evil choices, and then try to make something good come of it. Therefore this text stands as a kind of paradigm for how to understand the evil will of man within the sovereign will of God." (John Piper)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I think there's some confusion here. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself sufficiently. I'm saying that whatever leaders were in place would have been inclined (given mankind's propensity to sin after the Fall) to kill Jesus, not that "specific leaders x, y, and z were predestined to kill Jesus."

    Does that help?
    I understand what you are saying.

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