Hugh Hefner is now in hell

[seer]

So, let me be sure I've got this straight, is it your contention that belief in Jesus is not a requirement of salvation?

Jim, I'm a Molinist like Adrift, and too lean towards inclusiveness. Let me put it this way - anyone who sincerely wants heaven will find it, yet no one will be saved apart from the work of Christ. God knows men's hearts better than we know our own, He will Sovereignly get the Gospel to those He knows will repent. And for those who do not hear it before they die, but are disposed to the message, I believe will have a chance to repent in the afterlife. Don't take that to the bank though. Don't fail to receive Christ in this life because some idiot named seer told you there may be second chances...

[Sparko]

Oh JIMMY!!

What was the question I didn't answer? Helloooo?

Sparko, you never answered my question because you are either too dumb to understand it, or you are just a dishonest person. I don't think you're dumb. Adrift, understood what I was asking and, though i didn't care for his answer, he answered accordingly. So, are you just dumb, or are you dishonest?

[Mountain Man]

Jim, I'm a Molinist like Adrift, and too lean towards inclusiveness. Let me put it this way - anyone who sincerely wants heaven will find it, yet no one will be saved apart from the work of Christ. God knows men's hearts better than we know our own, He will Sovereignly get the Gospel to those He knows will repent. And for those who do not hear it before they die, but are disposed to the message, I believe will have a chance to repent in the afterlife. Don't take that to the bank though. Don't fail to receive Christ in this life because some idiot named seer told you there may be second chances...

Paul makes it pretty clear there is no second chance: "It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." Hebrews 9:27

I believe each person will be judged according to his own knowledge and that God will act with perfect justice, so nobody will be unfairly condemned. I also know that anybody who has been a member of Theology Web for any length of time and actively debated these matters will not be able to claim ignorance. God can just show them their internet history and ask, "How can you say you didn't know?"

[One Bad Pig]

Oh JIMMY!!

What was the question I didn't answer? Helloooo?

Dollars to donuts he's inclined to say something like, "You know full well which question. Stop dodging." Finding it now would take actual effort; it's easier to attempt to keep you on the defensive.

[Sparko]

Dollars to donuts he's inclined to say something like, "You know full well which question. Stop dodging." Finding it now would take actual effort; it's easier to attempt to keep you on the defensive.

He keeps claiming I never answered his question, yet I answered everything he asked as far as I know and I am willing to answer any I missed. So if he wants an answer, all he has to do is ask the question again. If not, that means he already knows my answer and has nothing to whine about.

[37818]

You have not provided any substantive reason to do so.

I have. And it is not substantive as you are understanding it. Now do you deny that there is an uncaused existence?

Yes. Most people are familiar with mythology.

Your idea of God is a mythical one.

Understood by whom and why would one accept the authority of Proverbs?

As I had said, by me. As for that proverb, it is either true or it is not true. As I am sure you are familiar with the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. That a claimed authority in and of itself does not make anything true.

Defining the universe as "everything that is", is an unverified assumption.

What do you mean by the term "universe?"

Cosmologists by no means agree on whether the universe is finite or infinite. If "infinite" then it not contingent on anything any more than your hypothesised deity would be.

Our known existence as we know it. What would be evidence of it being infinite? It is an assertion that if it was infinite it would not be contingent on anything else. And based on measured observations it is finite with an apparent calculated age of 13.8 something billion years old.

Only uncaused existence is not contingent on anything else.

You guess wrong. I’m familiar with the Cosmological Argument. Basically, it boils down to the claim that something caused the Universe to exist, and that this First Cause must be God...your god of course.

Obviously - not to you - you are not understanding the difference between "Uncaused Existence" and an "Uncaused Cause." Uncaused cause is contingent upon an uncaused existence. Existence and a cause are two different things.

Although it wasn't "your god" when the argument was first formulated by Plato.

Plato didn't know God either.

[Mountain Man]

He keeps claiming I never answered his question, yet I answered everything he asked as far as I know and I am willing to answer any I missed. So if he wants an answer, all he has to do is ask the question again. If not, that means he already knows my answer and has nothing to whine about.

When Jimmy claims that someone didn't answer his question, he usually means they didn't answer it the way he wanted, either they didn't confirm his assumptions, or they didn't walk into the "Gotcha!" trap he had laid

[Sparko]

When Jimmy claims that someone didn't answer his question, he usually means they didn't answer it the way he wanted, either they didn't confirm his assumptions, or they didn't walk into the "Gotcha!" trap he had laid

Pretty much.

But if he wants to claim I didn't answer his question, he needs to say what the question is. Then if I did answer it, I will point him to the post and my answer, and if I did not, I will answer it.

[Darth Executor]

No, if your god were a just god as you define him as being, then the opportunity would be the same for all. We know that it isn't the case, therefore its a stupid belief.

Why would the opportunity be the same for all? Egalitarianism is a (stupid) progressive relligious belief, there's no reason to assume any god would be egalitarian.

[seer]

Why would the opportunity be the same for all? Egalitarianism is a (stupid) progressive relligious belief, there's no reason to assume any god would be egalitarian.

Then the question becomes, why wouldn't God be egalitarian, why offer salvation and the Gospel to one sinner and not the other? Is there something that makes Darth or Seer special?

[Adrift]

Then the question becomes, why wouldn't God be egalitarian, why offer salvation and the Gospel to one sinner and not the other? Is there something that makes Darth or Seer special?

Good question. 1st Timothy tells us,

Scripture Verse: 1 Timothy 2:1

First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercessions, and thanks be offered on behalf of all people, 2 even for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior, 4 since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle—I am telling the truth; I am not lying—and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 8 So I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or dispute.

© Copyright Original Source

[Darth Executor]

Then the question becomes, why wouldn't God be egalitarian, why offer salvation and the Gospel to one sinner and not the other? Is there something that makes Darth or Seer special?

God DID offer salvation to everybody. He just didn't place it in everybody's bag.

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

[KingsGambit]

The Parable of the Vineyard doesn't teach that not all will have an opportunity to receive the gospel. Depending on which scholar you ask, it either teaches that those who have been faithful the longest will have the same reward as, say, deathbed converts, or that Judaism is not an advantage for salvation. I suspect the latter because there are other teachings in the NT about rewards for faithfulness on earth.

[Sparko]

God DID offer salvation to everybody. He just didn't place it in everybody's bag.

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

um that kinda says that God will treat everyone the same as far as salvation goes. Someone who comes in at the last minute gets the same treatment as someone who has been there from the start.

[Darth Executor]

um that kinda says that God will treat everyone the same as far as salvation goes. Someone who comes in at the last minute gets the same treatment as someone who has been there from the start.

What about those who didn't hear about a job at the vineyard (you know, the actual topic here)?