Hugh Hefner is now in hell

[JimL]

Well since I lean towards Craig's view on Molinism, I've already answered this. Romans 1 also goes into the subject concerning people before the Jews. And no, I'm not a young earth creationist. I'm sorry that you're upset that we have answers for our beliefs. I know it must seem much easier to be angry at a worldview that hasn't, but that's simply not the case.

Yes, I know, and Craig does the same thing, he makes crap up that either isn't biblical at all, or contradicts what the bible says. I mean, what else are you going to do, you either have to make stuff up, even if it makes no sense at all, else come to the realization that you've been living a lie, and we both know that would be too traumatic and ain't ever going to happen.

[Adrift]

Yes, I know, and Craig does the same thing, he makes crap up that either isn't biblical at all, or contradicts what the bible says. I mean, what else are you going to do, you either have to make stuff up, even if it makes no sense at all, else come to the realization that you've been living a lie, and we both know that would be too traumatic and ain't ever going to happen.

You're certainly free to that opinion.

[JimL]

JimL, please tell me which question I didn't answer for you and in which post you asked it.

You tried to make it about me Sparko, rather than answering the question directly. But here, I'll ask again. How do the billions of people, particularly those that lived prior to the existence of Jesus, who have never known anything about chrisianity or Jesus, and so do not believe in Jesus get saved?

[JimL]

You're certainly free to that opinion.

Exactly, and you are free to continue believing nonsense if it makes you happy.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, I know, and Craig does the same thing, he makes crap up that either isn't biblical at all, or contradicts what the bible says. I mean, what else are you going to do, you either have to make stuff up, even if it makes no sense at all, else come to the realization that you've been living a lie, and we both know that would be too traumatic and ain't ever going to happen.

How would you know? There's no evidence you've read the bible (at all, let alone recently) to know what's in it, and it's not as if you've actually bothered to read Craig based on your lazy misreading of even Adrift's synopsis. Easier to just repeat your own uninformed opinion and try to make us disprove it, eh?

[KingsGambit]

JimL has not earned the right to be the arbiter of what is and isn't biblical. (Though I tend to agree that Molinism is way too speculative to consider as a serious contender for a sotierological paradigm.)

[JimL]

How would you know? There's no evidence you've read the bible (at all, let alone recently) to know what's in it, and it's not as if you've actually bothered to read Craig based on your lazy misreading of even Adrift's synopsis. Easier to just repeat your own uninformed opinion and try to make us disprove it, eh?

HA Ha Ha! Theres no evidence you've read the bible either. But I have, and yes I know whats in it, and what is in it is a lot of nonsense that only the mind of a naive child, could be made to believe. Some of us grow up, and begin to realize that what we've been taught to believe is just so much fairy tale nonsense, but no doubt the meme is strong, and some, the meek, they just don't want to grow up and look life in the face, they want to stay and feel safe in their fantasy world forever and ever.

[Sparko]

He's too busy asking Adrift questions which Adrift has already answered.

Maybe Adrift can ask him for me since he seems to be conveniently not seeing my posts.

[Adrift]

Though I tend to agree that Molinism is way too speculative to consider as a serious contender for a sotierological paradigm.

Just curious, but which way do you lean on the subject? More of a Calvinist perspective maybe?

[KingsGambit]

Just curious, but which way do you lean on the subject? More of a Calvinist perspective maybe?

I don't like the terms Calvinist and Arminian as the systems themselves come with baggage on other issues. I prefer monergist/syngergist, and I'm definitely a synergist. The first Christians were synergists and didn't see compelling scriptural evidence to the contrary; Augustine was the one who really popularized monergism.

[Sparko]

You tried to make it about me Sparko, rather than answering the question directly. But here, I'll ask again. How do the billions of people, particularly those that lived prior to the existence of Jesus, who have never known anything about chrisianity or Jesus, and so do not believe in Jesus get saved?

By not sinning. Or in the case of the Hebrews, via the animal sacrifices God set up that pointed to the coming Sacrifice of the Messiah.

As I said, God doesn't OWE salvation to everyone. He doesn't owe salvation to anyone. So anyone not saved will have nothing to complain about. They will be going to hell for their own sins, which they committed themselves. I explained all this several times to you.

If God decided not to save anyone, then that would still be fair and just. We have all sinned. We all deserve hell. But God is merciful and will save some of us. You are lucky and have a choice. You are squandering it.

[Adrift]

I don't like the terms Calvinist and Arminian as the systems themselves come with baggage on other issues. I prefer monergist/syngergist, and I'm definitely a synergist. The first Christians were synergists and didn't see compelling scriptural evidence to the contrary; Augustine was the one who really popularized monergism.

Ok, so how would you answer the question, "Can those who have never heard the Gospel be saved?"

[rogue06]

Ok, so how would you answer the question, "Can those who have never heard the Gospel be saved?"

The Bible tells us that we're saved through Christ. It doesn't mention a "Plan B" yet that does not mean that God, through His infinite mercy, has not provided for one. Just that we haven't been told about it if it exists.

[Adrift]

The Bible tells us that we're saved through Christ. It doesn't mention a "Plan B" yet that does not mean that God, through His infinite mercy, has not provided for one. Just that we haven't been told about it if it exists.

Yep, a totally agnostic view on the question is certainly an option. I was just curious where KingsGambit himself leaned on the question since he's expressed that he's not fond of either Molinist nor Inclusivist answers to it. Which is perfectly fine of course. I figured if he felt strongly enough to express dissatisfaction with those views, then perhaps he leaned towards another.

[One Bad Pig]

HA Ha Ha! Theres no evidence you've read the bible either. But I have, and yes I know whats in it, and what is in it is a lot of nonsense that only the mind of a naive child, could be made to believe. Some of us grow up, and begin to realize that what we've been taught to believe is just so much fairy tale nonsense, but no doubt the meme is strong, and some, the meek, they just don't want to grow up and look life in the face, they want to stay and feel safe in their fantasy world forever and ever.

Ah, your usual lazy attempt to turn the accusation around on the accuser, with a double side of condescension and attempt at insult. Your painting of the bible and me is so wildly far off base I'm not even insulted by it. Meanwhile, you're the one spending so much time here arguing against a "fairy tale".