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  • #31
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Diversity in Modernity---Even in the West, intolerance is increasing---The Jews have always been recipients of intolerance but with white nationalism/ethno-nationalism, intolerance is increasing towards minorities in the West---this is a global problem---East and West are both "Modern" and more or less democratic---so this is a problem of Democracy and Modernity. And those who rebel against the current systems are not wrong...IMO, they bring out valid concerns....today people are slaves to work and debts, our culture is materialistic, encouraging people towards a transient, hedonistic happiness, powerful elites control our political and economic systems for their own benefits, people are without meaning or purpose....
    Yes, there are problems like this in Western countries, and I agree, but the problems in the Islamic countries far exceed the problems in the west by a scale of 10 times+. In most Islamic countries the minorities are moving west.

    It is not enough to have theories that give meaning and purpose in the abstract---these need to be transformed into lived actions if they are to become meaningful and purposeful.....this then leads to eudaimonic happiness---because that is how our nature is constructed. That is why all of the major religions emphasize charity---it is one way to encourage towards a deeper spiritual maturity that leads to deeper happiness and peace.
    Here is a Jewish perspective from a Rabbi that expresses some of my thoughts...
    http://www.islamicity.org/13145/are-...dinary-people/
    The Baha'i spiritual principles are not abstract, but specific reforms to be implemented in society, where your idealistic view of Islam fails. These spiritual principles are indeed being implemented in the west.

    In the USA I can practice my my faith, Baha'i Faith, openly and freely, and I cannot do that in most Islamic countries.

    This true, but it is the reason your idealistic unreal view of Islam fails. Islam does not embrace the minorities and diversity in Islamic countries and they are leaving. In fact persecution, isolation and forcing minorities to follow Islamic customs is dominant in most Islamic countries.

    Muslim-Majority countries---Yes , it is troubling the trajectory that some Muslim-majority countries are following---In an election, a Quranic verse was mistranslated and abused by Muslims for political gain---the same ugly populism that is occurring in the West is also creeping into the East. Recently a Muslim scholar was arrested by police in a Muslim-majority country---apparently they were "protecting Islam".....these and other abuses are troubling...We Muslims will destroy Islam ourselves if this continues...
    Still abhorrently scapegoating Western Cultures for the problems in Islamic Countries. The failure in Islamic countries in the above issues is the responsibility of Islam.

    The persecuting of religious minorities in Islamic countries far exceeds anything in Western countries. The religious minorities that are leaving and being forced out are going to Western countries where their conditions greatly improve.

    Hypocrisy---Yes, it is a human problem and will always exist---but the degree is different from a culture/society that demands hypocrisy as a default norm for public discourse---the way Modern Secularism does.
    False. Your still scapegoating Western culture for what are simply human problems all cultures have to deal with including Islamic countries.

    Modernity/Islamic history---Modernity has not been all bad---it has had its problems which have become more apparent as circumstances have changed (globalization) and perhaps it is time to re-adjust to a post-Modern era?...and it is also the case that Islamic history has not been without its problems now and then...but the "Islamic Empire" did have a vast geographical reach from Spain and North Africa to the borders of China and India---it was partially "global" and we can learn from this history to take the best practices for our tomorrow.....Global trade and economics, Plural legal traditions, full freedom of religions, free and safe movement of goods and people over land and sea...etc....

    Exclusive identity-constructs---Identity/identity-constructs are necessary for humanity to function in society as we are inherently social beings. It is in our nature. If identity-constructs are to be meaningful and purposeful---they need to have some degrees of exclusivity. The problem is not that---it is an excessive attachment to a particular identity-construct--nationalism, religion, ethnicity...etc. This is what causes an imbalance. Our identity constructs must be framed in a context that includes/allows for multiple identity-constructs/group affiliations with all of them culminating in the Unifying identity of the brotherhood of humanity. This can help balance and frame our multiple identity-constructs and group allegiances.

    Qadr (to measure) is the Islamic principle that can be used to frame our construction of "systems"--economics, ethico-moral, political, legal,...etc...in order to create balance and harmony that leads to peace---our "systems" need to be constructed with balance and harmony among its various component parts....for example---Justice must be balanced with compassion and mercy....our instincts of self-preservation (selfish/individual) must be balanced with our nature of service to those we care about (community/altruistic)

    Here a Muslim scholar, S.H. Nasr speaks about the Islamic principle of Balance.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_vnd_N0_Ho
    I acknowledge the 'Golden Age of Islam, roughly !800 Ad to 1600 AD, but that is long gone, and Islam no longer lives up to the principles you propose.

    I do not believe you responded coherently to the post, and overwhelming problems and crisis in the Islamic world today. You still scapegoat the West for the problems of Islam, that Islamic countries and Islam must take responsibility for their own problems, which far exceed the problems in western countries as cited.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-15-2017, 08:31 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Yes, there are problems like this in Western countries, and I agree, but the problems in the Islamic countries far exceed the problems in the west by a scale of 10 times+. In most Islamic countries the minorities are moving west.



      The Baha'i spiritual principles are not abstract, but specific reforms to be implemented in society, where your idealistic view of Islam fails. These spiritual principles are indeed being implemented in the west.

      In the USA I can practice my my faith, Baha'i Faith, openly and freely, and I cannot do that in most Islamic countries.

      This true, but it is the reason your idealistic unreal view of Islam fails. Islam does not embrace the minorities and diversity in Islamic countries and they are leaving. In fact persecution, isolation and forcing minorities to follow Islamic customs is dominant in most Islamic countries.



      Still abhorrently scapegoating Western Cultures for the problems in Islamic Countries. The failure in Islamic countries in the above issues is the responsibility of Islam.

      The persecuting of religious minorities in Islamic countries far exceeds anything in Western countries. The religious minorities that are leaving and being forced out are going to Western countries where their conditions greatly improve.



      False. Your still scapegoating Western culture for what are simply human problems all cultures have to deal with including Islamic countries.



      I acknowledge the 'Golden Age of Islam, roughly !800 Ad to 1600 AD, but that is long gone, and Islam no longer lives up to the principles you propose.

      I do not believe you responded coherently to the post, and overwhelming problems and crisis in the Islamic world today. You still scapegoat the West for the problems of Islam, that Islamic countries and Islam must take responsibility for their own problems, which far exceed the problems in western countries as cited.
      We are human beings and as human beings we have problems---these problems are in all countries...As a Muslim, I will look to my tradition/heritage to find acceptable solutions---and I hope that Buddhist, Christian and those from other religio-philosophies can also look to their traditions to find solutions. There is not just one way to solve a problem---our various traditions can give us multiple ways to solve human problems. This diversity---the ability to find creative solutions (Ijtihad)---is a blessing. In order for this to occur wholistically, religio-philosophies need to revive/revitalize their wisdom teachings and paradigms that impute purpose and meaning to what it means to be "human/humane". This framework will allow large groups to negotiate "values" that are acceptable to them and which they can apply to all aspects of life "systems".

      Bahai spiritual principles---It is good that Bahai have wisdom teachings---but this is not unique or exclusive to Bahai...Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and other religio-philosophies also have their own wisdom teachings and principles. What are the Bahai principles that can find universal expression in other traditions?...and if there are such principles then does labels matter? For example, when I speak about Qadr (to measure) and the use of this principle in establishing a framework of balance and harmony (that leads to peace)---I am using "Islamic" language to express a universal principle---that of Equilibrium/regression to the mean---which is a natural principle....and because it is inherent in creation, other wisdom teachings will have their own versions of it, expressed in their language, within their framework/paradigm.

      Freedom to practice religio-philosophies---If we assume that religio-philosophies create meta-narratives upon which large groups can build meaning, purpose and values---and that these principles and values permeate all aspects of life and its systems---then there are many countries that are not fully tolerant...for example, Catholic Church has problems with divorce, some Christians have problems with abortion or homosexuals, other groups have problems with an economic system based on "interest" ...etc....all these different values create tensions but these are decided in a "secular" setting by the "nation-state" and like it or not---these decisions are made into laws. In a democracy---the majority culture/value-system becomes the default value of the nation-state. Minorities are tolerated if they assimilate/integrate to these "default" value systems. (Pegida, Australia First, EDL...etc---are voicing these concerns and demands) ---This is the "Modern" system....it is inherently Hegemonic rather than Pluralistic. It is ok for people to hold different value systems in private---as thoughts...but they cannot display/live them in public...because there is no space in the public/civic life for plurality of "systems".
      Last edited by siam; 10-16-2017, 02:49 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        We are human beings and as human beings we have problems---these problems are in all countries...As a Muslim, I will look to my tradition/heritage to find acceptable solutions---and I hope that Buddhist, Christian and those from other religio-philosophies can also look to their traditions to find solutions. There is not just one way to solve a problem---our various traditions can give us multiple ways to solve human problems. This diversity---the ability to find creative solutions (Ijtihad)---is a blessing. In order for this to occur wholistically, religio-philosophies need to revive/revitalize their wisdom teachings and paradigms that impute purpose and meaning to what it means to be "human/humane". This framework will allow large groups to negotiate "values" that are acceptable to them and which they can apply to all aspects of life "systems".

        Bahai spiritual principles---It is good that Bahai have wisdom teachings---but this is not unique or exclusive to Bahai...Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and other religio-philosophies also have their own wisdom teachings and principles. What are the Bahai principles that can find universal expression in other traditions?...and if there are such principles then does labels matter? For example, when I speak about Qadr (to measure) and the use of this principle in establishing a framework of balance and harmony (that leads to peace)---I am using "Islamic" language to express a universal principle---that of Equilibrium/regression to the mean---which is a natural principle....and because it is inherent in creation, other wisdom teachings will have their own versions of it, expressed in their language, within their framework/paradigm.
        This is far to idealistic and unreal as far as the Islamic world today.

        Freedom to practice religio-philosophies---If we assume that religio-philosophies create meta-narratives upon which large groups can build meaning, purpose and values---and that these principles and values permeate all aspects of life and its systems---then there are many countries that are not fully tolerant...for example, Catholic Church has problems with divorce, some Christians have problems with abortion or homosexuals, other groups have problems with an economic system based on "interest" ...etc....all these different values create tensions but these are decided in a "secular" setting by the "nation-state" and like it or not---these decisions are made into laws. In a democracy---the majority culture/value-system becomes the default value of the nation-state. Minorities are tolerated if they assimilate/integrate to these "default" value systems. (Pegida, Australia First, EDL...etc---are voicing these concerns and demands) ---This is the "Modern" system....it is inherently Hegemonic rather than Pluralistic. It is ok for people to hold different value systems in private---as thoughts...but they cannot display/live them in public...because there is no space in the public/civic life for plurality of "systems".
        No this is not remotely an accurate description of the Western world. The problems you describe above applies more to Islamic world and worse, based on factual evidence.

        As far as the Western countries this is completely false. It is true that as a Baha'i Faith I may be shunned and avoided by many fundamentalist Christians, and there are some uncomfortable incidents, but I can publicly display, discuss, worship, and tech my faith in public, This is true of every religion and church and sect in the USA. This is NOT true in the Islamic world.

        Your description of the western world is disgracefully dishonest.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          No this is not remotely an accurate description of the Western world. The problems you describe above applies more to Islamic world and worse, based on factual evidence.

          As far as the Western countries this is completely false. It is true that as a Baha'i Faith I may be shunned and avoided by many fundamentalist Christians, and there are some uncomfortable incidents, but I can publicly display, discuss, worship, and tech my faith in public, This is true of every religion and church and sect in the USA. This is NOT true in the Islamic world.

          Your description of the western world is disgracefully dishonest.
          Perhaps another look at history might be helpful?....
          The "West" (however it is defined...) was genocidally violent towards "others"/minorities...Lets start with Europe---it began to homogenize by persecuting/expelling those it found "different" ---well known is the persecution of Jews, but another "minority"---the Roma/Romani were also persecuted. (The Romani genocide is known as Porajmos)...but this was not the starting point---that began in the 15th century with the Spanish/Portugese inquisitions and the "Christian" Doctrine of discovery...

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._Romani_people



          Spanish brutality is probably known by now---but the Portuguese were just as bad...they even persecuted and killed other Christians....
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Inquisition

          ...and this prejudice against minorities/other was inherited and practiced by those of European heritage who fled/"immigrated" to other lands such as U.S. Canada, Australia, New Zealand...etc where they continued to persecute the Native peoples. Democracy requires a "majority" or default culture and this problem is starkly seen in the establishment of Israel where a Jewish "majority" was artificially created by expelling/killing Palestinians....like what the Burmese Buddhists are doing now....
          Demographic (and geopolitical?) changes are re-fueling many of these inherited prejudices...which are a human flaw and not uniquely Christian, Buddhist, Muslim...etc...

          here are some opinions:- (perhaps exaggerated...)
          https://www.foreignaffairs.com/revie...hnic-cleansing
          "Mann suggests that democratization in particular multiethnic settings can create situations in which "rule by the people" is defined in ethnic terms, leading a majority group to tyrannize minorities"
          http://www.counter-propaganda.com/?a...ding_genocide?
          "Genocide apparently is a necessary stage of building modern democracy in big states. Democracy functions well only in the countries the politically homogeneous societies of which were historically created by ethnic and religious genocide."

          There is also the problem of the "Nation-State" created with artificial borders from which the "others" are excluded--this then creates problems of "Human Trafficking"/Modern Slavery, illegals who have no rights, or low wage "guest-workers" who have inadequate protections from exploitation or abuse....

          ....and...the interest-based capitalist economics that thrives on a zero-sum system of exploiting the "other".....

          considering all of these things...what harm is there in attempts at envisioning a better tomorrow that might be able to creatively tackle some of these problems?.....
          Last edited by siam; 10-19-2017, 03:52 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Perhaps another look at history might be helpful?....
            The "West" (however it is defined...) was genocidally violent towards "others"/minorities...Lets start with Europe---it began to homogenize by persecuting/expelling those it found "different" ---well known is the persecution of Jews, but another "minority"---the Roma/Romani were also persecuted. (The Romani genocide is known as Porajmos)...but this was not the starting point---that began in the 15th century with the Spanish/Portugese inquisitions and the "Christian" Doctrine of discovery...

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._Romani_people



            Spanish brutality is probably known by now---but the Portuguese were just as bad...they even persecuted and killed other Christians....
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Inquisition

            ...and this prejudice against minorities/other was inherited and practiced by those of European heritage who fled/"immigrated" to other lands such as U.S. Canada, Australia, New Zealand...etc where they continued to persecute the Native peoples. Democracy requires a "majority" or default culture and this problem is starkly seen in the establishment of Israel where a Jewish "majority" was artificially created by expelling/killing Palestinians....like what the Burmese Buddhists are doing now....
            Demographic (and geopolitical?) changes are re-fueling many of these inherited prejudices...which are a human flaw and not uniquely Christian, Buddhist, Muslim...etc...

            here are some opinions:- (perhaps exaggerated...)
            https://www.foreignaffairs.com/revie...hnic-cleansing
            "Mann suggests that democratization in particular multiethnic settings can create situations in which "rule by the people" is defined in ethnic terms, leading a majority group to tyrannize minorities"
            http://www.counter-propaganda.com/?a...ding_genocide?
            "Genocide apparently is a necessary stage of building modern democracy in big states. Democracy functions well only in the countries the politically homogeneous societies of which were historically created by ethnic and religious genocide."

            There is also the problem of the "Nation-State" created with artificial borders from which the "others" are excluded--this then creates problems of "Human Trafficking"/Modern Slavery, illegals who have no rights, or low wage "guest-workers" who have inadequate protections from exploitation or abuse....

            ....and...the interest-based capitalist economics that thrives on a zero-sum system of exploiting the "other".....

            considering all of these things...what harm is there in attempts at envisioning a better tomorrow that might be able to creatively tackle some of these problems?.....
            Your citations have a heavy heavy bias.What you are describing is not the contemporary world that criticize as "Modern." Let us deal with The Islamic world and the West in recent history and Islam has done far far worse. As far as slavery, Islam has been as much into slavery as the West.

            Some of your examples such as your accusations concerning Buddhism in Burma are not Buddhists, but Burmese Militarist Nationalism. In history Buddhism ia far less violent and aggressive than Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

            The reason I am a Baha'i is neither Judaism, Christianity, nor Islam provide the guidance to deal with a diverse modern world, If anything you are reinforcing my belief, and totally failing to comprehend the severe problems of the Islamic world today.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-19-2017, 08:44 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Your citations have a heavy heavy bias.What you are describing is not the contemporary world that criticize as "Modern." Let us deal with The Islamic world and the West in recent history and Islam has done far far worse. As far as slavery, Islam has been as much into slavery as the West.

              Some of your examples such as your accusations concerning Buddhism in Burma are not Buddhists, but Burmese Militarist Nationalism. In history Buddhism ia far less violent and aggressive than Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

              The reason I am a Baha'i is neither Judaism, Christianity, nor Islam provide the guidance to deal with a diverse modern world, If anything you are reinforcing my belief, and totally failing to comprehend the severe problems of the Islamic world today.
              Bias---I agree that since we are focusing on criticism of Modernity---it appears I am biased. We have not discussed the good aspects of Modernity---which I think are self-evident---so the focus is on the problems...Both the East and the West have problems and I think these are the problems of "Modernity"---the reason is that of the Modern paradigm---comprising of ideas such as Nation-State/Nationalism, "Secular"/non-religious hegemony (including that of the communist U.S.S.R and China), exploitative economics, unethical elitist legal systems and power imbalances.

              Buddhism---It is religio-nationalist---like Zionism or ISIS,---in which the argument is that a particular geographic territory belongs to a particular ethno-religious group. I am not arguing that Buddhism as a value-system encourages such a concept---neither does Judaism nor Islam---but human beings use justifications for all types of crimes---for example---U.S. went to war to "spread democracy" and the French colonized in order to "bring civilization"...etc....
              The idea that non-Christians were "less than human" was started by the Pope (who is a Christian) and the anti-Muslim genocidal 969 movement was started by a Buddhist Monk Ashin Wirathu. Yet, I believe these traditions/religio-philosophies contain within them the themes and values to stop such abuses. But in order to do so---all our various traditions need to develop sustainable identity-constructs that promote beneficial values and restrain harm. These identity-constructs must incorporate a correct understanding of human dignity---that this is a right of ALL humanity and not just a select group of people.

              We need (multiple) identity-constructs because this is human nature---that is why homogenization/mono-culture does not fit our human nature. If this is so, then to make space for various robust identity-constructs that give purpose and meaning from which we can create value-systems leading to benefits and restraining harm---is the best way forward. In other words---Bahai must promote good values for Bahai---Muslims must do so for Islam and so forth....and at the same time as we mutually respect our various identity-constructs we also acknowledge we are all a family/brotherhood of humanity and entitled to equal worth/human dignity and with commensurate responsibilities.

              Slavery---the kidnapping of human beings for the purpose of exploitation---is bad regardless of it occurring in Modernity or pre-Modernity. But even if a person were not kidnapped, exploitation of human beings for generating profits is still bad. It goes against the principle of equivalent human worth/human dignity.

              Human Dignity is a commonsense, reasonable, concept. It can be understood by all human beings regardless of being theist/non-theist. The "Golden Rule" in all traditions expresses this core value---in different ways. It may be expressed and implemented variously and creatively by different peoples/groups---that is ok. Diversity is good.

              Of the two identity constructs of religio-philosophy and nationalism---religion is global. If we imagine a future without borders---then the identity-construct that would be most useful for us would be that of a religio-philosophy. Since identity-constructs are a necessary part of human nature---a variety of large group (global) identity-constructs that promote benefit and restrain harm would be a better option for freedom of choice than one mono-construct that eliminates choice.....?.....
              Last edited by siam; 10-19-2017, 11:05 PM.

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