Mass Shooting Las Vegas...

[rogue06]

Unless you're not one of the rioters and happen to get in the way. Amateurs taking on violent mobs - this does not make for a good ending.

Tell that to the Korean and Cambodian owners of businesses in Los Angeles that were being specifically targeted for looting and destruction during the rioting after the Rodney King verdict. They stood up on top of their stores allowing the rioters to clearly see that they were armed with AR-15s and even some old M-1 rifles. That was enough to turn back the thugs and FWIU they never fired a shot.

It isn't an action that I would recommend but when the police are essentially standing down (or ordered to do so like when the mayor of Baltimore recently told them to give them space to loot and riot) you really are limited in your choices if you want to defend yourself and property

[Teallaura]

If this thread gets a little too heavy, feel free to head on over to my sumo thread and weigh in there. Fat chance of that, no doubt (all you cultureless Americans), but I'll extend the invitation.

I wonder if we can convince some sumo wrestlers to try curling?

[TheWall]

Forget criminal law - it's the civil side that needs correction. You (general) own it - YOU are responsible for it. It gets stolen because you didn't bother to lock it away, you are responsible for any and all damages done for the next year. ALL. No bankruptcy protection.

Gun owners would quickly invest in decent gun safes.

Conversely, if you did take reasonable precautions (decent safe, locked doors) and it still gets stolen, then that's the price we pay for a free society.

YOU fire that weapon, YOU are responsible for where the bullet ends up. No excuses - you shoot someone, you at a minimum pay damages assuming no civil or criminal action.

But all that controls the weapon, not just the person. If you want to own a weapon, then you have to feed and water it. You have to know where it is - and make sure it is secure when not on your person.

How am I responsible for theft? Another person is doing the stealing. Do you want to put in the dock if someone stole your jewelry or car keys?

[Zymologist]

Nothing. You aren't going to become the tooth fairy, either.

I spent a hour crawling home because of an idiot shooting at me. I found my cats and dogs dead with bullets in them not a hundred yards from my home. A neighbor dead for the crime of standing in his own living room while an idiot across the lake didn't have enough sense not to fire from a hill overlooking a lake. A friend dead because another friend tossed a shotgun into a car. Those memories aren't going away - and no, I'm never going to buy into something I've never seen where it counted.

Intellectually, I'll perfectly willing to allow that this is not reasonable. I would NOT argue that people should not be allowed to own guns merely because I don't like it. I'll even allow that responsible gun owners probably exist - but as an intellectual exercise. My gut still remembers differently.

You can take that issue up with the Koliaga Hunting Club.

I'm sorry to hear that story, really. Sorry if I came across as a jerk.

[Teallaura]

Tell that to the Korean and Cambodian owners of businesses in Los Angeles that were being specifically targeted for looting and destruction during the rioting after the Rodney King verdict. They stood up on top of their stores allowing the rioters that they were armed with AR-15s and even some old M-1 rifles. That was enough to turn back the thugs and FWIU they never fired a shot.

Which they didn't purchase that day, did they? Your earlier point was that waiting periods allowed rioters to run roughshod over business owners. My counter point is that if they already had training/certification it might be a valid point - but a bunch of people who were only buying guns because they were scared aren't likely to be the ones you want to have guns, even in that circumstance.

Waiting periods aren't a major impediment to protecting property.

[rogue06]

You are a special case. Probably the only guy I know who should himself be regulated as a public danger...

My FOIA request several years ago revealed a file as thick as my thumb stretching all the way back to 7th grade

[Teallaura]

I'm sorry to hear that story, really. Sorry if I came across as a jerk.

No problem. At all.

[rogue06]

I wonder if we can convince some sumo wrestlers to try curling?

Now THAT just might be fun to watch.

[Teallaura]

How am I responsible for theft? Another person is doing the stealing. Do you want to put in the dock if someone stole your jewelry or car keys?

If you took reasonable precautions to keep the weapon secured, you aren't responsible. Otherwise, it's your gun, you are responsible for it.

[TheWall]

Teal I have my wallet on me. If someone steals it how am I responsible?

[Joel]

If you took reasonable precautions to keep the weapon secured, you aren't responsible. Otherwise, it's your gun, you are responsible for it.

Would you use the same principle in the case of kitchen knives, gasoline, fertilizer or whatever? If you didn't have it in a safe and it got stolen and was used to commit a crime, you'd be responsible?

Perhaps like Adrift you'd argue a difference in inherent dangerousness, but that seems like a matter of degree. Perhaps that would only affect your degree of responsibility?

[Teallaura]

You realize dear are pretty strong right?
Humans made weapons to deal with the fact that animals and other humans had ways to hurt them.

So?

[TheWall]

Would you use the same principle in the case of kitchen knives, gasoline, fertilizer or whatever? If you didn't have it in a safe and it got stolen and was used to commit a crime, you'd be responsible?

Perhaps like Adrift you'd argue a difference in inherent dangerousness, but that seems like a matter of degree. Perhaps that would only affect your degree of responsibility?

See this is what I was asking. Ifor my wallet is stolen how am I responsible? How can I be responsible if someone steals from me?

[Teallaura]

Would you use the same principle in the case of kitchen knives, gasoline, fertilizer or whatever? If you didn't have it in a safe and it got stolen and was used to commit a crime, you'd be responsible?

Perhaps like Adrift you'd argue a difference in inherent dangerousness, but that seems like a matter of degree. Perhaps that would only affect your degree of responsibility?

Guns are weapons. They are regulated because they are very good at increasing the deadliness of human violence. In fact, they can do so so well that humans with no training can kill humans bigger and stronger than themselves - which would be shear luck in the case of an armed conflict with a knife.

Which is why people steal them for use (as opposed to financial gain) - unlike knives, fertilizer and gasoline. Also unlike the same, no particular knowledge beyond 'point this way' is necessary for a gun to do what it's supposed to do - kill.

A fire arm is a different class of weapon. I owned swords and bows/arrows - but frankly, only with a gun could I have killed anyone (okay, maybe the long bow - that thing had an incredible range!). Swords and bows require a lot of training to be effective weapons in the majority of cases - guns simply don't.

There is a parallel case, however - dogs. You are responsible for your pet's actions. It bites someone, guess who pays?

[rogue06]

I wonder if we can convince some sumo wrestlers to try curling?

Not exactly what you were thinking...