Originally posted by NormATive
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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What must I do to be Born Again?
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostIt may seem like a small point, but I find it very interesting that the composers of the Christian Testament could not even interpret their own ancient texts. To be fair, they were working from a Greek translation of the Hebrew, so...
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNo, I don't. Just because you have a twisted view of God doesn't mean I do.
http://www.devotions.com/2006/09/fee...-from-god.html
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostNo kidding. I said the difference is that in Mark, the PEOPLE are still alive. In Isaiah, the people are DEAD - CORPSES.
I take it I answered your questions in post #21, since you moved on without responding?
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostTalking about twisted views; this is from Devotions.com,
http://www.devotions.com/2006/09/fee...-from-god.htmlThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostWhen in Mark 9 are the people cast into hell depicted as alive?
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by RBerman View Post
I would not include item 3 (Live according to his teaching) as something we must do to earn salvation. But it is a characteristic of those who satisfy 1 and 2. It would not make sense to trust Jesus for eternity but disregard him in this life. In that sense, item 3 in your list is evidentiary with respect to salvation rather than efficacious.
The dietary laws are a good example. By adhering to a Kosher diet, I've all but eliminated the dangers of food poisoning. Meat and dairy are kept separate from everything else - thus; no contamination!
The laws on how to share property, forgive debts, pay recompense for those you've wronged, etc... are also good illustrations of what I think Jesus was all about. I think Christians miss the boat by simply excusing themselves from adherence to The Law.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostSo, is it your contention that the Christian Testament does NOT teach that the unrepentant are sent to hell alive? How does a corpse weep and wail and gnash it's teeth?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI would say that it's a metaphor for dying and coming into new life.
NORMWhen the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostI do not see how you can excise #3 from your formula. Quite a bit of what the Christian Testament documents about the person of Jesus is how we ought to live - which appears to me a deeper understanding of The Law - following not merely the letter, but the intent. This is exactly what Hillel was teaching. He taught that it is not enough to memorize a bunch of laws, but to internalize them, and understand them for what G-d intended. The dietary laws are a good example. By adhering to a Kosher diet, I've all but eliminated the dangers of food poisoning. Meat and dairy are kept separate from everything else - thus; no contamination! The laws on how to share property, forgive debts, pay recompense for those you've wronged, etc... are also good illustrations of what I think Jesus was all about. I think Christians miss the boat by simply excusing themselves from adherence to The Law.
2) Jesus' teaching on the Law does include the importance of intent. His endorsement of the ceremonial aspects of the law was less, shall we say, fervent:
This ambivalence toward the ceremonial laws such as diet and holidays carries over into Paul's epistles as well, which is why Christians hold that those aspects of the law, which separated Jews from Gentiles, have ended now that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. However the overriding moral principles of, say, the Decalogue, remain in force, for they reflect God's eternal character and the way He has created man to function best.
So yes, Christians must keep the Laws which did not serve to separate out Jews from the rest of the world. But the keeping of those Laws is not something that earns us God's good favor, which is why I did not include it in the list of things by which we obtain the "free gift."
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostThis ambivalence toward the ceremonial laws such as diet and holidays carries over into Paul's epistles as well, which is why Christians hold that those aspects of the law, which separated Jews from Gentiles, have ended now that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. However the overriding moral principles of, say, the Decalogue, remain in force, for they reflect God's eternal character and the way He has created man to function best.
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Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostI don't think I've ever heard it put quite that way before. I like it.
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Originally posted by NormATive View PostWhat to do with these Christian Testament scriptures, then?
Matthew 25:46. Verses 31-46 is primarily a sober word exhortation to Jesus' students to faithful discipleship. Whereas the faithful will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven/God (v.34), the unfaithful will be cast off (v.41). In v.46 aiōnios ("eternal"/age-lasting) punishment and life are contrasted. Some are welcomed into the Kingdom, others are irrevocably excluded. What is the precise nature of the punishment? Does it entail perpetual torment? While this notion is usually taken for granted by advocates of the conventional view of final punishment, this assumption is unfounded. If you are interested, I have written "An Overview of Final Punishment in Matthew's Gospel".2
Revelation 21:8. First, it should be noted that the imagery of burning sulfur hails back to Genesis 19 of the Hebrew Scriptures and God's judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah (vv.23-29). Without a doubt, the destruction of these cities was complete (vv.27-29, Luke 17:28,29; 2 Peter 2:6). (The closest parallel we have to Revelation's "lake of fire" is "the river" or "stream of fire" in Daniel 7:10.) Second, "the second death" clarifies the meaning of the nature or function "the lake of fire" serves in the Apocalypse. Like the fate of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, after the final judgement the unrighteous will be no more.3 Third, the first usage of "the second death" in Revelation is instructive. Jesus admonishes the church in Smyrna:
"Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'" (2:10,11 ESV)
The two deaths in view parallel each other, the key difference being that the second death is final. Jesus promises his faithful disciples that they will ultimately be rewarded with life even if their present lives are ended in persecution as his saints. After having died and being raised never to die again, Jesus has "the keys of Death and Hades"/the Grave. It is in his power to grant life and to take it away.
Notes
1 http://theremonstrant.blogspot.com/2...tation-of.html
2 http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2014/theo...tthews-gospel/
3 The cosmological implications of final annihilation are beautiful. The new heavens and the new earth will forever be untainted by sin, rebellion, sickness, pain, sadness, death and disease. There will be no room in God's renewed creation for the existence of evil or any of its ill effects. These are the first things that will have passed away (cf. Revelation 21:4).Last edited by The Remonstrant; 04-09-2014, 06:01 AM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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