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What do those Nobel people know anyway?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    It's not science Shunya, it's voodoo. You have to have repeatable experiments and testable hypotheses to have science. This is just magic dressed up as science. Thus my cartoon.
    The work of physicists and cosmologists like Krauss and Vilenkin are considered science in the scientific community, and there work is based repeatable experiments and hypothesis in Quantum Mechanics. They, and other scientists, recognize the limits of their research. It is not expected that you would understand nor support their work.

    Seer and you are stuck in ancient Newtonian Physics trying to justify an outdated agenda. Seer's selective citation of science, like Vilenkin, he does not support is even more reprehensible and dishonest.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      It's not science Shunya, it's voodoo. You have to have repeatable experiments and testable hypotheses to have science. This is just magic dressed up as science.
      So, i'm not going to chase down exactly what he's pointing to, but things like virtual particles and energy associated with the vacuum of empty space can be demonstrated through repeatable experiments and testable hypotheses. Probably the clearest demonstration is the Casimir effect:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

      But there are others.

      Given that, trying to understand why the vacuum of empty space has an energy content, and to understand possible consequences of that fact, is scientific - including if one of the consequences could be the origin of the universe. But at the same time, it can also lead to lots of unscientific speculation. Which means you have to read very carefully if you're going to rely on popular press accounts, because they're not always good at delineating which is science and which is a scientist's speculation.
      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        It's not science Shunya, it's voodoo. You have to have repeatable experiments and testable hypotheses to have science. This is just magic dressed up as science. Thus my cartoon.
        Largely but certainly not always. For instance nobody has ever conducted any experiments to see if a mature redwood tree actually sprouts from an acorn but if you ask any botanist they'll say that is indeed what happens based on the evidence.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Largely but certainly not always. For instance nobody has ever conducted any experiments to see if a mature redwood tree actually sprouts from an acorn but if you ask any botanist they'll say that is indeed what happens based on the evidence.
          ?
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            ?
            Sorry, I was originally thinking of Bristlecone Pines which live for several thousand years.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Sorry, I was originally thinking of Bristlecone Pines which live for several thousand years.
              Now I understand. Bristlecone Pines do sprout from acorns.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                Now I understand. Bristlecone Pines do sprout from acorns.
                I believe it is common place to start Bristlecone Pine from seed. In fact there are kits and recommendation on how to grow it.

                Source: file:///C:/Users/FrankDoonan/Downloads/pinetreeseedsguide.pdf


                How to Grow Pine Trees from Seed:
                You received your Pine tree seeds in the mail, now what?
                Options:
                 You can plant the seeds outdoors in the fall and let them naturally stratify during the
                winter and they will germinate in the spring.
                 If the seeds require cold and or warm stratification period – you can stratify the seeds
                inside in your fridge during the winter months and then plant the seeds outdoors in the
                spring (after the last frost).
                 You can stratify the seeds indoors in your fridge and then germinate the seeds indoors
                during the winter, growing the seeds into Pine tree seedlings and then transplanting the
                seedlings outdoors in the spring.
                 If the seeds don’t require a stratification period, you can store the seeds in plastic bags
                in your fridge and plant the seeds outdoors in the fall or spring. Generally, spring is the
                best time to plant tree seeds outdoors because they have the spring, summer and fall to
                mature enough to survive the winter weather conditions.

                © Copyright Original Source

                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  I believe it is common place to start Bristlecone Pine from seed. In fact there are kits and recommendation on how to grow it.
                  But not from acorns.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    But not from acorns.

                    OK I missed it. It sounds like a sarcasm exchange.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      This discussion seems to have morphed. At this point with recent events being observed both through light and gravity waves I don't think there can be any doubt that we can detect gravitational waves. Here's a recent example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW170817

                      Things can indeed pop into existence out of nothing, but to my knowledge that is not yet a generally accepted explanation for the origin of the universe. I believe there are several possibilities, none of which is fully established as a good model.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                        This discussion seems to have morphed. At this point with recent events being observed both through light and gravity waves I don't think there can be any doubt that we can detect gravitational waves. Here's a recent example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW170817

                        Things can indeed pop into existence out of nothing, but to my knowledge that is not yet a generally accepted explanation for the origin of the universe. I believe there are several possibilities, none of which is fully established as a good model.
                        The only problem is things can only pop into existence from matter free space. This is only nothing by a very limited definition.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          The only problem is things can only pop into existence from matter free space. This is only nothing by a very limited definition.
                          This is an assertion on your part based on 'belief' not science, and not the view of the physicists and cosmologists based on the science of Quantum Mechanics, and they all pretty much agree including Vilenkin, Krauss, Guth,and Hawking.

                          Our universe, and all possible universe originate spontaneously from Quantum nothing without matter, space and time. Matter, space and time begin with the beginning of our universe and all possible universes.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            This is an assertion on your part based on 'belief' not science, and not the view of the physicists and cosmologists based on the science of Quantum Mechanics, and they all pretty much agree including Vilenkin, Krauss, Guth,and Hawking.

                            Our universe, and all possible universe originate spontaneously from Quantum nothing without matter, space and time. Matter, space and time begin with the beginning of our universe and all possible universes.
                            You simply repeated what I wrote, though I admit my statement was not complete. The quantum nothing is not nothing.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              You simply repeated what I wrote, though I admit my statement was not complete. The quantum nothing is not nothing.
                              And i think many of the physicists he's quoting would agree with you. Nothing as we've traditionally defined it has been the vacuum of empty space. We now know that that has fields and virtual particles in it. So we can redefine nothing to mean space without those if we wanted (not that i'm sure we could define what that is). But ultimately it's a matter of semantics at this point - as long as you understand what the underlying physics tells us, nobody really cares what you decide to call it.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                                And i think many of the physicists he's quoting would agree with you. Nothing as we've traditionally defined it has been the vacuum of empty space. We now know that that has fields and virtual particles in it. So we can redefine nothing to mean space without those if we wanted (not that i'm sure we could define what that is). But ultimately it's a matter of semantics at this point - as long as you understand what the underlying physics tells us, nobody really cares what you decide to call it.
                                The physicist's "nothing" is not the same as the philosopher's "nothing".
                                "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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