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Thread: Commentary Thread: lee_merrill & 37818 - nature of Only Begotten Son

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Commentary Thread: lee_merrill & 37818 - nature of Only Begotten Son

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Berkhof argued, "This does not mean, however, that it is an act that was completed in the far distant past,." But goes on to argue, "but rather that it is a timeless act, the act of an eternal present, an act always continuing and yet ever completed. Its eternity follows not only from the eternity of God, but also from the divine immutability and from the true deity of the Son." Now the full deity of the Son with God the Father and the immutablity which accompanies the deity of the Son is not dependant upon that argument. But is true independantly of it.
    Certainly immutability and the deity of the Son are not being argued for. But Berkhov speaks here of the deduction from Scripture of the eternal generation of the Son.
    You simply quoted Berkhoy and gave a conclusion he made - not his argument, not his deduction from any cited Scripture. So please explain the deduction he made.

    Remember that term "begotten" in its ordinary use refers to a beginning. The concept of eternal generation refers to an "origin" without a "beginning." Which is a non sequitur on the face of it. God has no origin. What has an origin is not God.
    Last edited by 37818; 10-08-2017 at 05:30 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    You simply quoted Berkhoy and gave a conclusion he made - not his argument, not his deduction from any cited Scripture. So please explain the deduction he made.

    Remember that term "begotten" in its ordinary use refers to a beginning. The concept of eternal generation refers to an "origin" without a "beginning." Which is a non sequitur on the face of it. God has no origin. What has an origin is not God.
    You might want to PM him so that he knows this thread and your question exists.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    You might want to PM him so that he knows this thread and your question exists.
    Done.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    The thread's OP is not so much a commentary on the debate but rather a seeming attempt to continue it.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The thread's OP is not so much a commentary on the debate but rather a seeming attempt to continue it.
    yeah that's what I was thinking.

    This is supposed to be for people to comment on the debate, not to continue the debate.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The thread's OP is not so much a commentary on the debate but rather a seeming attempt to continue it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    yeah that's what I was thinking.

    This is supposed to be for people to comment on the debate, not to continue the debate.
    Well make your comments already. No body did, so I had a question and a comment.

    Anyway, if you do not want me to continue discussing it. That is fine with me.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The thread's OP is not so much a commentary on the debate but rather a seeming attempt to continue it.
    IIRC I've seen debate participants do that in commentary threads before. The only difference is that this thread was started by one of the participants.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Source: Berkhof

    Berkhof argued, "This does not mean, however, that it is an act that was completed in the far distant past,." But goes on to argue, "but rather that it is a timeless act, the act of an eternal present, an act always continuing and yet ever completed. Its eternity follows not only from the eternity of God, but also from the divine immutability and from the true deity of the Son." Now the full deity of the Son with God the Father and the immutablity which accompanies the deity of the Son is not dependant upon that argument. But is true independantly of it.

    © Copyright Original Source


    You simply quoted Berkhoy and gave a conclusion he made - not his argument, not his deduction from any cited Scripture. So please explain the deduction he made.
    Yes, that was my intent, to explain the deduction he made, from Scripture.

    Remember that term "begotten" in its ordinary use refers to a beginning.
    Yes, so "today I have begotten you" cannot refer to a beginning of Jesus' life.

    The concept of eternal generation refers to an "origin" without a "beginning." Which is a non sequitur on the face of it. God has no origin. What has an origin is not God.
    Unless "origin" refers to "source", then the Father can be the source of the Son, the origin in that sense.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, that was my intent, to explain the deduction he made, from Scripture.
    What was the scripture that Berkhof was making his deduction from? And please explain that deduction step by step.

    Remember that term "begotten" in its ordinary use refers to a beginning.
    Yes, so "today I have begotten you" cannot refer to a beginning of Jesus' life.
    I never thought that it did. And upon study, according to the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Paul said that it refers to Jesus' bodily resurrection (Acts 13:33 and context). And in Jesus' resurrection He was "the beginning" (Colossians 1:18; Romans 8:22-23, 29; Revelation 1:5).

    Unless "origin" refers to "source", then the Father can be the source of the Son, the origin in that sense.
    Also God has no source being the source of all things (John 1:3 note).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You are a good brother. Thank you.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    What was the scripture that Berkhof was making his deduction from? And please explain that deduction step by step.
    Yes, that was what the first part of my opening statement was:

    I hope we both conclude that God is eternal (Rom. 16:26, Deut. 33:27), that God does not change (Ps. 102:26-27 / Heb. 1:11-12, Mal. 3:6, James 1:17), and that the Son is divine (John 20:28, 1 John 5:20).

    So then if the Son is divine, he is eternal and he does not change. Now the Son is begotten of the Father (Ps. 2:7), so then the Son is begotten of God from all eternity.

    Also God has no source being the source of all things (John 1:3 note).
    Yet God the Son has his source in the Father, begotten of the Father, is what we see in Scripture.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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