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Thread: Commentary Thread: lee_merrill & 37818 - nature of Only Begotten Son

  1. #11
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, that was what the first part of my opening statement was:

    I hope we both conclude that God is eternal (Rom. 16:26, Deut. 33:27), that God does not change (Ps. 102:26-27 / Heb. 1:11-12, Mal. 3:6, James 1:17), and that the Son is divine (John 20:28, 1 John 5:20).

    So then if the Son is divine, he is eternal and he does not change. Now the Son is begotten of the Father (Ps. 2:7), so then the Son is begotten of God from all eternity.


    Yet God the Son has his source in the Father, begotten of the Father, is what we see in Scripture.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Well a number of things here. Berkhof's quote preceded the references which you provided in your opening argument. And you still are not indicating what Berkhof's Scripture reference(s) where for his deduction. Nor the steps of that deduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    “Its eternity [of the generation of the Son] follows not only from the eternity of God, but also from the divine immutability and from the true deity of the Son.” (Louis Berkhof)

    I hope we both conclude that God is eternal (Rom. 16:26, Deut. 33:27), that God does not change (Ps. 102:26-27 / Heb. 1:11-12, Mal. 3:6, James 1:17), and that the Son is divine (John 20:28, 1 John 5:20).
    Do you not understand that I do not deny the eternal Son and that I am only contending that the concept of eternal generation is both not according to God's word and unnecessary? The concept of "begotten of the Father before all ages" gave rise to the heresy of Arius. And the creed had to add the words "not made" to counter his heresy. Without those words "not made" the words "begotten of the Father before all ages" makes the Son of God a created being.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #12
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Well a number of things here. Berkhof's quote preceded the references which you provided in your opening argument. And you still are not indicating what Berkhof's Scripture reference(s) where for his deduction. Nor the steps of that deduction.
    I don't know what exact verses Berkhof would have given, I included a sample here. Then I noted the steps of Berkof's deduction, as far as I understand it:

    So then if the Son is divine, he is eternal and he does not change. Now the Son is begotten of the Father (Ps. 2:7), so then the Son is begotten of God from all eternity.

    Without those words "not made" the words "begotten of the Father before all ages" makes the Son of God a created being.
    So we both agree that the Son of God is not a created being.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I don't know what exact verses Berkhof would have given, I included a sample here. Then I noted the steps of Berkof's deduction, as far as I understand it:

    So then if the Son is divine, he is eternal and he does not change. Now the Son is begotten of the Father (Ps. 2:7), so then the Son is begotten of God from all eternity.
    Ok, can you set your understanding and my understanding of Psalm 2:7 side by side and explain how and why they differ? (1 Corinthians 1:10.)
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Moderated By: Littlejoe

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Ok, can you set your understanding and my understanding of Psalm 2:7 side by side and explain how and why they differ? (1 Corinthians 1:10.)
    I'm not sure I can speak for you, but an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I'm not sure I can speak for you, but an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Ok, maybe you do not understand. We, I thought, agreed that Psalm 2:7 did not refer to the Son of God's birth to be "made" flesh (John 1:14). Now I understand the reference to refer to the Son of God, ". . . the LORD hath said unto Me, Thou [art] My Son; . . ." And referred to as already being the [incarnate] Son of God. Now according to the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul, the being "begotten" refers to Christ's bodily resurrection, ". . . that He hath raised up Jesus again; . . . ," Acts 13:33 and context.

    So how do you understand it differently?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    We, I thought, agreed that Psalm 2:7 did not refer to the Son of God's birth to be "made" flesh (John 1:14). Now I understand the reference to refer to the Son of God, ". . . the LORD hath said unto Me, Thou [art] My Son; . . ." And referred to as already being the [incarnate] Son of God. Now according to the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul, the being "begotten" refers to Christ's bodily resurrection, ". . . that He hath raised up Jesus again; . . . ," Acts 13:33 and context.
    Yes, I agree with all of this, and would add that "begotten" shows that the Son is begotten of the Father as part of his nature, an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  8. #18
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, I agree with all of this, and would add that "begotten" shows that the Son is begotten of the Father as part of his nature, an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    He already had a divine nature prior to His incarnation. And the incarnation took place prior to God saying to Him, "Thou [art] My Son." So what do you then mean by, "that 'begotten' shows that the Son is begotten of the Father as part of his nature?" And what do you mean by, "an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship," when the resurrection was supernatural?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. #19
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    He already had a divine nature prior to His incarnation. And the incarnation took place prior to God saying to Him, "Thou [art] My Son." So what do you then mean by, "that 'begotten' shows that the Son is begotten of the Father as part of his nature?"
    Since God doesn't change, if the Son is begotten, then he has always been begotten.

    And what do you mean by, "an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship," when the resurrection was supernatural?
    By earthly I meant "on earth", in the earthly realm a supernatural event occurred. And this event of begetting would (because God doesn't change) speak of begetting as part of Jesus' nature, as the Father-Son relationship implies.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Blessings,
    Lee
    Totally off topic, but did you know that if you want your signature to show up in every one of your posts automatically, you can put it in your signature box by editing it on your profile page? That way you don't have to hand type it every post.

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