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Thread: Commentary Thread: lee_merrill & 37818 - nature of Only Begotten Son

  1. #21
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    He already had a divine nature prior to His incarnation. And the incarnation took place prior to God saying to Him, "Thou [art] My Son." So what do you then mean by, "that 'begotten' shows that the Son is begotten of the Father as part of his nature?"
    Since God doesn't change, if the Son is begotten, then he has always been begotten.
    The Son of God, the "Word," was "begotten" when He was "made" flesh (John 1:14, Luke 1:35). And being the incarnate Son of God, after He physically died, He was "begotten" in His bodily resurrection (per Psalm 2:7). Where do you get the "Word," being the Son of God, who was always "God" being "begotten?" (John 1:1-3.)

    And what do you mean by, "an earthly begetting would speak of a nature of begetting, of begetting in the Father-Son relationship," when the resurrection was supernatural?
    By earthly I meant "on earth", in the earthly realm a supernatural event occurred. And this event of begetting would (because God doesn't change) speak of begetting as part of Jesus' nature, as the Father-Son relationship implies.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    That is the assertion I have been asking you to explain. Repeating it does not explain it. Nor give the step by step deduction from Holy Scripture.

    Do you not understand that I affirm that the eternal Son is equal with the Father as God, not being begotten in being God with the Father?
    Last edited by 37818; 10-17-2017 at 01:21 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #22
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Totally off topic, but did you know that if you want your signature to show up in every one of your posts automatically, you can put it in your signature box by editing it on your profile page? That way you don't have to hand type it every post.
    Lee has a signature already, so I suppose it just feels natural for him to sign off manually.
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  3. #23
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Lee has a signature already, so I suppose it just feels natural for him to sign off manually.
    Hmm. True. But...we already know who he is cause his name is right there in big bold letters above his profile picture. I've noticed this about some folks (typically older ones) who feel the need to sign off each post with their name, and it's always been a head scratcher for me. Makes more sense that, if you MUST have it, it should be in your signature line.

  4. #24
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Hmm. True. But...we already know who he is cause his name is right there in big bold letters above his profile picture. I've noticed this about some folks (typically older ones) who feel the need to sign off each post with their name, and it's always been a head scratcher for me. Makes more sense that, if you MUST have it, it should be in your signature line.
    I view it as a courtesy thing. It might not matter to the recipient, but it just feels right to personally sign off on every communication, even though it's no longer necessary. People writing letters did it as a matter of course.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  5. #25
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I view it as a courtesy thing. It might not matter to the recipient, but it just feels right to personally sign off on every communication, even though it's no longer necessary. People writing letters did it as a matter of course.
    I guess so. Seems like a waste of time to me, but oh well.

  6. #26
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Totally off topic, but did you know that if you want your signature to show up in every one of your posts automatically, you can put it in your signature box by editing it on your profile page? That way you don't have to hand type it every post.
    Yes, thanks, that is a helpful feature, though I do like to type blessings to everybody.

    Blessings!
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  8. #27
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The Son of God, the "Word," was "begotten" when He was "made" flesh (John 1:14, Luke 1:35). And being the incarnate Son of God, after He physically died, He was "begotten" in His bodily resurrection (per Psalm 2:7). Where do you get the "Word," being the Son of God, who was always "God" being "begotten?" (John 1:1-3.)
    His earthly begetting speaks of a begetting by the Father in the Father-Son relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill
    By earthly I meant "on earth", in the earthly realm a supernatural event occurred. And this event of begetting would (because God doesn't change) speak of begetting as part of Jesus' nature, as the Father-Son relationship implies.
    That is the assertion I have been asking you to explain. Repeating it does not explain it. Nor give the step by step deduction from Holy Scripture.

    Do you not understand that I affirm that the eternal Son is equal with the Father as God, not being begotten in being God with the Father?
    Well, fathers beget sons, that is the nature of a father-son relationship. God the Father begot Jesus (Ps. 2:7), so that aspect of the relationship is apparent there. Since God does not change, the aspect of being begotten would need to be unchanging too, and this would be true if Jesus is begotten from all eternity.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  9. #28
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, fathers beget sons, that is the nature of a father-son relationship. God the Father begot Jesus (Ps. 2:7), so that aspect of the relationship is apparent there.
    In the incarnation after His death (Acts 13:33 and context)

    Since God does not change, the aspect of being begotten would need to be unchanging too, . . .
    There is one big problem here - God is not begotten in any way.

    . . . and this would be true if Jesus is begotten from all eternity.
    Jesus is His human nature not His divine nature. Jesus was begotten twice, once to become human (John 1:14; Luke 1:35). And again to be declared the Son of God in His incarnation in resurrection to become the immortal man (Psalm 2:7; Romans 1:4; Hebrews 13:8). Two distinct events in time.

    Now how does that answer my question?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #29
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    There is one big problem here - God is not begotten in any way.
    Maybe this is the heart of our disagreement, Jesus was begotten, and Jesus is God.

    Jesus is His human nature not His divine nature.
    Actually, Jesus is both his human nature and his divine nature.

    Two distinct events in time.
    And events in time can point to a timeless aspect of Jesus' nature.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. #30
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Maybe this is the heart of our disagreement, Jesus was begotten, and Jesus is God.
    No, Jesus is His name as the man (Luke 1:31; Matthew 1:21; 1 Timothy 2:5).

    Actually, Jesus is both his human nature and his divine nature.
    No, the Son of God has two natures and Jesus is His human name as the man in His human nature.

    And events in time can point to a timeless aspect of Jesus' nature.
    As now that man, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8

    In that before His incarnation He "was God" and that did not change in any way through the incarnation (John 1:1, 3, 14). But how He was "with God" was a change when He was "made" flesh (John 1:2, 14).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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