Liberal Atheists are at it again.

[Mountain Man]

You can if you like, but you'd be wrong.

Can I also say you have no sense of humor?

[Rushing Jaws]

Yes, it is.

might argue in reply that atheism, unbeknownst to atheists, is a replacing of one theism by another; that atheism amounts in effect to autotheism, deification of self. But while such an argument can be made - whether it be valid or not - that is not what atheists have in mind in denying that they have a religion of any kind. If someone denies that he worships Buddha, it is good manners to suppose that the denial is honest & true, and that the person in question does indeed not worship Buddha. ISTM that we owe atheists the same good manners and consideration.

[tabibito]

Wrong, the God of the Bible was Yahwey, Jesus and Casper, and Jeffereson didn't believe in any of them.

Whether to believe your claim ... whether to believe Jefferson's own words ... such a tough call.

[JimL]

Whether to believe your claim ... whether to believe Jefferson's own words ... such a tough call.

Ah, those are Jeffersons own words, he didn't believe in Yahwey, which he believed to be a perverse conception of God, nor did he believe Jesus to be God, but a moral philosopher. He also didn't believe in the Trinity. So, in what sense can he be said to be a christian?

[JimL]

Can I also say you have no sense of humor?

You just aren't humorous MM.

[tabibito]

Ah, those are Jeffersons own words, he didn't believe in Yahwey, which he believed to be a perverse conception of God, nor did he believe Jesus to be God, but a moral philosopher. He also didn't believe in the Trinity. So, in what sense can he be said to be a christian?

In Jefferson's own words: He does not believe in the god that Calvin promoted. He does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was god. He does accept the existence of the god (according to his own understanding) of the Bible. Plenty of people who believe they are Christians hold those same opinions, and even more hold only to one of those opinions.

[Tassman]

Could we say that Jefferson was a Christian, he just wasn't a very good one?

[Cow Poke]

might argue in reply that atheism, unbeknownst to atheists, is a replacing of one theism by another; that atheism amounts in effect to autotheism, deification of self. But while such an argument can be made - whether it be valid or not - that is not what atheists have in mind in denying that they have a religion of any kind. If someone denies that he worships Buddha, it is good manners to suppose that the denial is honest & true, and that the person in question does indeed not worship Buddha. ISTM that we owe atheists the same good manners and consideration.

[JimL]

In Jefferson's own words: He does not believe in the god that Calvin promoted. He does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was god. He does accept the existence of the god (according to his own understanding) of the Bible. Plenty of people who believe they are Christians hold those same opinions, and even more hold only to one of those opinions.

Well then, they can call themselves christian if they want, but if they don't believe that Jesus is god, then they simply aren't christian.

[Cow Poke]

Well then, they can call themselves christian if they want, but if they don't believe that Jesus is god, then they simply aren't christian.

It's interesting that a self-admitted atheist who hides behind the label "agnostic" would be so worried about who's a Christian and who isn't.

[JimL]

It's interesting that a self-admitted atheist who hides behind the label "agnostic" would be so worried about who's a Christian and who isn't.

Where do you get the idea that I'm worried?

[tabibito]

Well then, they can call themselves christian if they want, but if they don't believe that Jesus is god, then they simply aren't christian.

On that I'm inclined to agree. But the claim that Jefferson didn't PROFESS a belief in the god of the Bible, to wit: YHVH, cannot be supported.
Moreover, his rejection of Calvin's claim to being Christian has just as much substance as your rejection of Jefferson's claim to being Christian.

[Mountain Man]

It's always hilarious when someone responds seriously to what was obviously a joke.

[seer]

Every historical textbook I've ever read has Jefferson written as a Deist. He even made it clear that he didn't trust biblical accounts of miracles and even had them removed from his own bibles. Hardly the work of a Christian.

I'm not claiming that he was a Christian, though he did have a lot of regard for the moral teachings of Christ. But he wasn't a Deist, again, Demism of that day did not believe that God intervened in human affairs. Jefferson did:

From the DoI:

And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

From the Jefferson Memorial, panel three

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . . .

No Deist believed in Divine Providence, or that God would send His wrath.

[Sparko]

That's completely false, Jefferson did not believe in Yahwey, Christ, or the triune God of Christianity. He believed in a supreme being, thought Jesus to be a great moral philosopher, and thats about it. He once, writing to a friend, said that he believed himself to be "a sect unto himself, as far as he knew". You can't be a Christian and not believe in Yahwey, Christ, and the triune god.

He did not believe in the Trinity, but he did believe in Jesus, and his God. He even SAID he was a Christian!

Let me repeat:

Thomas Jefferson considered himself a Christian, not a Deist.


I am a real ChristianI am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, editor (Boston: Grey & Bowen, 1830), Vol. III, p. 506, to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803


As were the other founding fathers.

https://wallbuilders.com/founding-fa...tianity-bible/