Liberal Atheists are at it again.

[Sparko]

Of course he believed in the supernatural you moron. He believed in GOD.

The question is: which God? Since he claimed to be a Christian, it is the CHRISTIAN GOD, even if he was not a standard orthodox Christian and his view of the Christian God was incorrect according to orthodox Christianity.

[Cow Poke]

The "liars" are the right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian. By any doctrinal standard he was not.

Well, when somebody claims to be a Christian, and you claim they are not, you are calling them a liar.

You're wrong, and incapable of admitting it.

[Sparko]

Well, when somebody claims to be a Christian, and you claim they are not, you are calling them a liar.

You're wrong, and incapable of admitting it.

He is also lying when he says we are trying to make him into a Christian. We have already said he was unorthodox and heretical.

This whole argument is from Roy claiming that the DOI wasn't talking about the Christian God because Jefferson only believed in deism and nature and not a personal God like the God of Christianity. But since he called himself a Christian and followed Jesus, that means he believed in Jesus' God, the God of Christianity, as far as he understood it. He definitely got God's nature wrong because he didn't believe in the Trinity, but there is no denying that he believed in a personal God who was associated with Jesus and the Bible. Not an impersonal generic God of Nature. Roy kept trying to deflect this by asking for a specific reference to Christianity in the DOI, but there isn't one. But by reading Jefferson's other writings we know that he considered himself a Christian, which means the God spoken of is the God of Christianity in the DOI.

[Roy]

We know he believed in God. The only question is which God? If he believed in Jesus and followed him, and calls himself a Christian then the obvious answer is the Christian God. Even if he didn't believe Jesus was divine himself.

Obvious answers are frequently wrong. Since the commonest Christian concept of god includes Jesus as a divine component, the obvious answer in this case is suspect.

[tabibito]

Obvious answers are frequently wrong. Since the commonest Christian concept of god includes Jesus as a divine component, the obvious answer in this case is suspect.

Unorthodox and heretical, as Sparko said. But those terms are not applied to a person who does not believe in the existence of the Christian god. It does mean that the person concerned, though believing, has and promulgates (usually) false claims about the Christian god.

[JimL]

Well, when somebody claims to be a Christian, and you claim they are not, you are calling them a liar.

You're wrong, and incapable of admitting it.

Duh. No, we are not calling him a liar, we are saying he is wrong if he truly believes himself to be a christian.

[Sparko]

Obvious answers are frequently wrong. Since the commonest Christian concept of god includes Jesus as a divine component, the obvious answer in this case is suspect.

So since you claim to be an atheist, we must assume that you believe in Yahweh then. We can't go with the obvious answer can we?

The first thing a Christian cult does is get rid of Jesus as divine. They keep the same God of Abraham, but eliminate Jesus as a divine component. Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, 7th day Adventists, etc. In each case the God they believe in would be still described as the Christian God, even though they get his nature wrong. To try to claim they are deists would be mistaken.

You can't call Jefferson a deist if he calls himself a Christian. That is just stupid.

He was more of a Unitarian.

[JimL]

Unorthodox and heretical, as Sparko said. But those terms are not applied to a person who does not believe in the existence of the Christian god. It does mean that the person concerned, though believing, has and promulgates (usually) false claims about the Christian god.

The christian god is Yahwey, Jesus and the Holy ghost, none of which Jefferson believed in as god.

[Roy]

Jefferson was a theist, and he claimed to be a Christian. Therefore the God he believed in was the Christian God, at least from his own point of view.

He also claimed to be a Lockean. Was the god he believed in the Lockean God? If not, your logic is flawed.

[tabibito]

The christian god is Yahwey, Jesus and the Holy ghost, none of which Jefferson believed in as god.

He stated, according to the cited letter that his god was the god of Jesus, and in other citations also posted by Sparko, that he deemed himself a Christian. The basic belief is there, and the claim that he had the Christian god in mind is substantiated.

[seer]

He also claimed to be a Lockean. Was the god he believed in the Lockean God? If not, your logic is flawed.

Except Locke's God was the Christian God:http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/lo...f-christianity

[Roy]

Jefferson claimed that the Bible mis-represents the true God, while at the same time claiming to believe in the God of Jesus.

I've not seen anything that indicates Jefferson claimed to believe in the God of Jesus. Do you have a source for that?

[JimL]

He stated, according to the cited letter that his god was the god of Jesus, and in other citations also posted by Sparko, that he deemed himself a Christian. The basic belief is there, and the claim that he had the Christian god in mind is substantiated.

Along with Yahwey and the holy ghost, Jesus's god was himself, correct. Jefferson didn't believe in that god, ergo he didn't believe in the god of Jesus.

[One Bad Pig]

Obvious answers are frequently wrong. Since the commonest Christian concept of god includes Jesus as a divine component, the obvious answer in this case is suspect.

Your attempt to paint unorthodox followers of Christ as non-Christian in order to avoid conceding a point is getting rather amusing, Roy. There was a time in the 4th century when Arians (who did not include Jesus as a 'divine component of god') ruled the Roman Empire and dominated some parts of the church. The only emperor considered non-Christian, however, was Julian the Apostate.

[Cow Poke]

Duh.

I bet you say that a lot in real life.