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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    Frequently. When the US declared independence it was illegal to conduct a Catholic mass in England. Saudi Arabia, which has adopted Islam as a state church, currently forbids any other religion.

    Those drafting the constitution and the bill of rights knew that state churches could and did stifle other religions.
    First I asked "does it," present tense.

    Second, which is never acknowledged by liberals, the 2nd was actually intended to prevent one denomination from being established as a State Religion. Christianity was almost universally accepted as the only valid faith by the founders. In fact if you care to research it one Supreme Court decision prevented a college from being established because it was not founded on Christianity. If you replace the word religion in the 2nd with the modern "denomination" you will have a much more accurate understanding.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
      Using that approach, state police seizing all firearms in the state is not unconstitutional because it's not congress making a law.
      What are you talking about, that would clearly violate the Second Amendment, which says nothing about a congress. You are really grasping for straws Roy - sad.

      Seer is hair-splitting between a government-sanctioned action and the law that permits that action, and claiming that the former cannot be unconstitutional even though the latter is.
      You you even know what you are trying to say? I have maintained that school prayer does not violate the Constitution as written - it doesn't, period - and wasn't thought so for close two hundred years of our history.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        fify; couldn't resist

        You get a free amen!
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Well yeah bonehead, I was speaking of school prayer. I was not speaking of a congress (state or federal) compelling prayer.
          ...
          But I was speaking of school prayer, not forced prayer compelled by the state.
          That's what school prayer is. State-sanctioned compulsory prayer in public schools. Did you think it meant students having a quick pray behind the bike-shed before an exam?

          You're effectively saying that your speaking of school prayer, not school prayer. Unless you think your "little red school house having a morning prayer" is not state-sanctioned and compulsory for students.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
            You said that the idea that "the establishment clause's purpose is to protect religious minorities" is so absurd so as to render any following argument not worth reading. I'm just trying to figure out your reasoning.
            It's a simple fact that the First Amendment is wholly unconcerned with religious minorities, and it certainly wasn't written with the intent of protecting "religious minorities" from "Christian privilege". It wasn't even written with the intent of forbidding government from informally preferring or promoting one religion over another. Its only purpose is to prohibit government from creating laws that establish or restrict religious expression.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I apologize. The fact that you're too ignorant to understand the difference between an atheist and an agnostic really should have been no surprise to me at all.
              Don't you know, CP that atheists have redefined the term "agnostic" to avoid admitting that they are indeed atheists.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                What are you talking about, that would clearly violate the Second Amendment, which says nothing about a congress. You are really grasping for straws Roy - sad.
                So it does. Change the example to:

                Using that approach, state police dispersing all congregations that attempt to engage in Xtian worship (or destroying all printing presses in the state or cutting out the tongues of public speakers) is not unconstitutional because it's not congress making a law.
                You you even know what you are trying to say?
                I'm saying that you're claim that school prayer is constitutional because it doesn't involve passing a law is garbage, because school prayer is dependant on there being a law having been passed that permits a school to hold it.
                Last edited by Roy; 10-23-2017, 12:27 PM.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  So it does. Change the example to:

                  Using that approach, state police dispersing all congregations that attempt to engage in Xtian worship (or destroying all printing presses in the state or cutting out the tongues of public speakers) is not unconstitutional because it's not congress making a law.
                  It would still be illegal because they have no legal authority to back up their actions. Cops can't just go around doing what they want. They enforce laws, they can't just go around being bullies. Your examples are getting worse, Roy. And they would be violating the 4th amendment.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Don't you know, CP that atheists have redefined the term "agnostic" to avoid admitting that they are indeed atheists.
                    Well, that's kinda what I thought... it's a cowardly and deceptive way to make folks believe you are more tolerant than you are, perhaps.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      First I asked "does it," present tense.
                      The state church in England does not (currently) stop other religions or religious minorities from worshiping as they see fit, but the state church in Saudi Arabia does. Present tense.

                      So the answer to your question is that yes, a state church often stops other religions or religious minorities from worshiping as they see fit. Your selection of an example where it does not does not affect that answer.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        I can: 1981 Alabama Statute ( 16-1-20.1) authorized state schools to institute a one-minute silence for meditation or prayer.
                        Meh... technically, that's a SCOTUS ruling, not a law. SCOTUS, as I'm sure you are aware, does not make law.

                        Though I think you misconstrued Jim's statement.
                        Perhaps - he's never been very good at expressing cogent thought.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          It would still be illegal because they have no legal authority to back up their actions.
                          Just like teachers who compel students to attend prayers have no legal authority to back up their actions. Right? Teachers can't just go around doing what they want.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            I can: 1981 Alabama Statute ( 16-1-20.1) authorized state schools to institute a one-minute silence for meditation or prayer.

                            Though I think you misconstrued Jim's statement.
                            That does not compel a child to pray. An atheist child can do whatever he or she or [insert transgender pronoun of choice here] wants for that minute - meditate on the assertion that God is a fairy tale, count sheep, think on the meaning of life (or lack thereof), etc....
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              Just like teachers who compel students to attend prayers have no legal authority to back up their actions. Right? Teachers can't just go around doing what they want.
                              Now you've lost me. Teachers are not law enforcement officers.

                              on a slightly different track:

                              Do you think that the writers of the constitution and the fathers of our country, the USA, meant that there could not be any prayers in school when they wrote the constitution and the first amendment? That it was their intention to keep religion out of schools altogether?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                That's what school prayer is. State-sanctioned compulsory prayer in public schools. Did you think it meant students having a quick pray behind the bike-shed before an exam?
                                No I was speaking of teacher lead prayer (which I think I mentioned), school sanctioned prayer - that that is not unconstitutional. The option - not that students had to join in. I remember those days, you had the option of joining in or not - not compulsory.

                                You're effectively saying that your speaking of school prayer, not school prayer. Unless you think your "little red school house having a morning prayer" is not state-sanctioned and compulsory for students.
                                We actually had teacher lead prayer, it was not compulsory for students, nor was it compulsory for teachers to do it. I had teachers who did and didn't. The option was there. But again, a school district is not CONGRESS making a LAW.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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