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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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An Infinite Past?

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  • Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    Huh, wouldn't an infinite past indicate that Christ died and came back to life an infinite amount of times? After all, it is only necessary that the particles arrange themselves in such a way so as to restore brain function.
    Well, without to much thought on the question, I would suggest that it is the whole that is understoood as being infinite, not the perceived parts, or changes therein, into which the whole rearranges itself. So, an infinitely many returns, I would think would be confusing the infinitey of the motionless, and so timeless whole, with the finiteness of the incremental change, or motion within that eternal whole. But it is probably likely that the whole replicates itself many times over which would explain the fine tuning problem regarding our own universe. Time, I would suggest is the measure of motion, or change of form, within the eternal whole, and can only be understood with regard to that motion, and not to the nature of the whole itself. So, the eternal Cosmos could have formed our universe and everything in it, including Jesus, many times over, some would say infinitely many times, but being that time itself is descriptive of the finite, that I think would be a contradiction.

    Comment


    • JimL, up to your "but," your argument seemed to make sense.

      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      . . . , but being that time itself is descriptive of the finite, that I think would be a contradiction.
      Please, explain how you came to this conclusion.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        JimL, up to your "but," your argument seemed to make sense.


        Please, explain how you came to this conclusion.
        If we consider that time, like space, is eternal and infinite, then time, like eternity is not a thing in itself that moves, but is merely descriptive of incremental changes, the measure of motion, within an eternal and unchanging whole.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
          Huh, wouldn't an infinite past indicate that Christ died and came back to life an infinite amount of times? After all, it is only necessary that the particles arrange themselves in such a way so as to restore brain function.
          First, human religious assumptions would not determine whether there is an infinite past or not. Second, sequences of events would not define nor limit the existence surrounding the events occur whether it is infinite or finite in the past or the future.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            First, human religious assumptions would not determine whether there is an infinite past or not. Second, sequences of events would not define nor limit the existence surrounding the events occur whether it is infinite or finite in the past or the future.
            Shuny, where did I make human religious assumptions?
            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
            Sir James Jeans

            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
            Sir Isaac Newton

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              If we consider that time, like space, is eternal and infinite, then time, like eternity is not a thing in itself that moves, but is merely descriptive of incremental changes, the measure of motion, within an eternal and unchanging whole.
              Wait. What makes space eternal or infinite? There also has to be more than one thing in space to have meaningful distance. And time, along with two or more things in order for there to be motion or change.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Wait. What makes space eternal or infinite? There also has to be more than one thing in space to have meaningful distance. And time, along with two or more things in order for there to be motion or change.
                The way I define eternal is that which has never not existed, and by infinite I mean that which is unbounded and extends everywhere, there is nowhere that it is not. What you mean by "meaningful distance" i'm not sure. Your last sentence i'm not understanding, perhaps you could clarify?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  The way I define eternal is that which has never not existed, and by infinite I mean that which is unbounded and extends everywhere, there is nowhere that it is not. What you mean by "meaningful distance" i'm not sure. Your last sentence i'm not understanding, perhaps you could clarify?
                  The word "meaningful" should have been omitted. In space, distance is only by the things in space. Space without matter does not matter . Without somethings in space there is no distance or time for that matter. If there was only one electron in all of space, except for its spin and its dimensions there would not be any time or dimension in space. Photons - light has to have matter in space to have any meaning, wavelength or frequency to travel at its speed of light. No matter no light in space.
                  Last edited by 37818; 03-31-2015, 08:40 AM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    The word "meaningful" should have been omitted. In space, distance is only by the things in space. Space without matter does not matter . Without somethings in space there is no distance or time for that matter. If there was only one electron in all of space, except for its spin and its dimensions there would not be any time or dimension in space. Photons - light has to have matter in space to have any meaning, wavelength or frequency to travel at its speed of light. No matter no light in space.
                    Not sure where you got that from. A ten mile long distance in space is a ten mile long distance whether anything else is in space or not. And as far as either of us knows the same would go for time. Time itself, however it is finally defined, is not necessarily something that changes, it could be, just like space could be, infinite. But can I ask where you are going with this?
                    Last edited by JimL; 03-31-2015, 07:35 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                      Shuny, where did I make human religious assumptions?
                      Huh, wouldn't an infinite past indicate that Christ died and came back to life an infinite amount of times? After all, it is only necessary that the particles arrange themselves in such a way so as to restore brain function.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        The way I define eternal is that which has never not existed, and by infinite I mean that which is unbounded and extends everywhere, there is nowhere that it is not.
                        Fine, it is possible that our physical existence has never not existed, unbounded and extends everywhere.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Wait. What makes space eternal or infinite?
                          If our physical existence is eternal and infinite, it is not necessary that anything 'makes' it so.

                          There also has to be more than one thing in space to have meaningful distance. And time, along with two or more things in order for there to be motion or change.
                          IF there could be infinite things in space, and infinite things for motion or change to take place naturally then no problem our natural existence could be naturally infinite and eternal, and then again it may not be so.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Huh, wouldn't an infinite past indicate that Christ died and came back to life an infinite amount of times? After all, it is only necessary that the particles arrange themselves in such a way so as to restore brain function.
                            What assumption did I make there?
                            the 'religious part' is an implication from the stated premise that there is an 'infinite past'. That's not an assumption.
                            -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                            Sir James Jeans

                            -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                            Sir Isaac Newton

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                              What assumption did I make there?
                              the 'religious part' is an implication from the stated premise that there is an 'infinite past'. That's not an assumption.
                              . . . wouldn't an infinite past indicate that Christ died and came back to life an infinite amount of times? Is indeed a religious assumption on your part, that IF there is an infinite past then you assume . . .
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Fine, it is possible that our physical existence has never not existed, unbounded and extends everywhere.
                                I know you think its clever, but double negations are always ugly.

                                Comment

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