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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    But nature is not intelligible in and of itself and we are not rational in and of ourselves. They are only such because of God. We are contingent on God, that makes God the precondition - whether you like that term or not. To argue otherwise would be to claim that nature and humans are intelligible/rational in and of themselves.
    I did not argue otherwise. I argued against Van Til's precondition and the conclusion of a presuppositional fundamentalist literal interpretation of scripture, and only Christians have the rational logical justification of knowledge. Of course this correct rational and logical justification would be limited to those Christians that share the Christian worldview of M., Black, Van Til, and you.

    Yes, God Created humanity as an intelligent rational and logical spiritual being, and Created our physical existence as uniform, consistent, non-contradictory, and intelligible to human intelligence and abilities to understand its physical nature.

    I have no reason to believe this is not true. Some cite 'Original Sin' and the Fall of humanity into Sin as the cause of a warped human intellect, and the lack of human abilities to accurately understand our universe in a rational logical manner, but this is another Alice in Wonderland venture down the rabbit hole.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-17-2014, 02:09 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I did not argue otherwise. I argued against Van Til's precondition and the conclusion of a presuppositional fundamentalist literal interpretation of scripture. Yes, God Created humanity as an intelligent rational and logical spiritual being, and Created our physical existence as uniform, consistent, non-contradictory, and intelligible to human intelligence and abilities to understand its physical nature.
      Good so we agree that God is the precondition for human rationality and an intelligible universe. You just don't like what Van Til and others extrapolate from that - correct? And neither of us have any reason to assume that unaided nature could, in and of itself, create such rational, intelligible conditions.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Good so we agree that God is the precondition for human rationality and an intelligible universe. You just don't like what Van Til and others extrapolate from that - correct? And neither of us have any reason to assume that unaided nature could, in and of itself, create such rational, intelligible conditions.
        The precondition is simply that God is the Creator and our physical existence is dependent on God as the Creator.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Jim, I will try one more time. God's moral choices are not arbitrary because they are born from an immutable (changeless) moral nature. In other words, God does not arbitrarily decide that lying is wrong - God CAN NOT LIE. It is against His nature to do so, He is TRUTH. His prohibition on lying is a reflection of that immutable ethical character - and not in any sense arbitrary. And again, God's law is and remains objective to humankind. It is not dependent on the changing whims of men. Finally, apart from God there is no objective moral standard - no could there be.
          Okay then, so your idea is that there is no such thing as right and wrong in and of itself, correct? In other words if God didn't exist then you don't subjectively see there being anything wrong with murder or rape or theft etc. etc., correct? So now maybe you understand why we created God seer! Now you of course believe in that God as the objective and authoritative source of morality, which is a good thing, since you apparently wouldn't be a very nice person if not for your belief and fear. But without producing evidence of the objective moral standard that you assert to exist, your argument is naught but bluster. Besides that seer, the bible makes plain that the Christian God is not immutable, that he does lie, and that he does change his mind, and that his supposed moral standard is arbitrary.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Jim, I will try one more time. God's moral choices are not arbitrary because they are born from an immutable (changeless) moral nature. In other words, God does not arbitrarily decide that lying is wrong - God CAN NOT LIE. It is against His nature to do so, He is TRUTH. His prohibition on lying is a reflection of that immutable ethical character - and not in any sense arbitrary. And again, God's law is and remains objective to humankind. It is not dependent on the changing whims of men. Finally, apart from God there is no objective moral standard - no could there be.
            "I will try one more time": How do you know that "God's moral choices are not arbitrary", or that "they are born from an immutable (changeless) moral nature". How do you know there is even a God upon which to base your theological speculation? Answer: You don't. Your entire moral system is based upon beliefs for which there is no substantive evidence whatsoever. You can believe whatever you like but don't expect other people to take you bald assertions seriously. Human morality has been in existence long before the gods were invented.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The precondition is simply that God is the Creator and our physical existence is dependent on God as the Creator.
              Well yes, but that in turn is why the universe is intelligible, why human beings are rational, why nature is uniformed. God - not unaided nature, is responsible for this. Good, so I think we finally agree.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Okay then, so your idea is that there is no such thing as right and wrong in and of itself, correct? In other words if God didn't exist then you don't subjectively see there being anything wrong with murder or rape or theft etc. etc., correct? So now maybe you understand why we created God seer! Now you of course believe in that God as the objective and authoritative source of morality, which is a good thing, since you apparently wouldn't be a very nice person if not for your belief and fear. But without producing evidence of the objective moral standard that you assert to exist, your argument is naught but bluster. Besides that seer, the bible makes plain that the Christian God is not immutable, that he does lie, and that he does change his mind, and that his supposed moral standard is arbitrary.

                Jim, can you show me where in scripture God lied? And I never said He did not "change His mind." Especially when we repent. That however does not change His moral nature, nor make His law arbitrary. And yes, I did think that murder was wrong, that was the way I personally was brought up. But if I was a Hutu brought up in Rwandan - who knows.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Well yes, but that in turn is why the universe is intelligible, why human beings are rational, why nature is uniformed. God - not unaided nature, is responsible for this. Good, so I think we finally agree.
                  When ever you say we finally agree I get that uncertain feeling as to where this is leading, because beyond the precondition is simply that God is the Creator and our physical existence is dependent on God as the Creator, we apparently do not agree.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Jim, can you show me where in scripture God lied?
                    Sure. 1) With regards to prayer in Matthew 23:36, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 10:23---Mark 13:30-31--- Luke 9:27---John 21:22
                    2) with regards to the end times in Matthew 21:21-22, Matthew 7:7-8, Matthew 18:19-20, Mark 11:24-25, Luke 11:9-13, John 14:13-14, John 15:7, 15:16, and 16:23
                    3) Kings 1 22:20-23 - God puts a lying spirit in the prophets in order that they decieve Ahab so that he is killed in battle. Micaiah exposes Gods lie, but Ahab doesn't believe Micaiah and so goes to battle in spite of Micaiah's warning, and is killed.

                    And I never said He did not "change His mind." Especially when we repent.
                    And how does an omniscient God who knows all the future change his mind?

                    That however does not change His moral nature, nor make His law arbitrary.
                    If murder is not immoral in and of itself, then it is arbitrary and subject to authority. And by the way the bible has revealed the arbitrary nature of its Gods morality.
                    And yes, I did think that murder was wrong, that was the way I personally was brought up. But if I was a Hutu brought up in Rwandan - who knows.
                    Yes, we are all brought up to believe certain things, that is called subjectivity. If you were brought up as a muslim, chances are that you would be a muslim.
                    Last edited by JimL; 10-19-2014, 03:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      When ever you say we finally agree I get that uncertain feeling as to where this is leading, because beyond the precondition is simply that God is the Creator and our physical existence is dependent on God as the Creator, we apparently do not agree.
                      Well Shuny, a precondition is simply a condition that must exist before another condition or situation can be realized. So I'm not sure why you would disagree that an intelligible, uniformed universe is conditioned, or dependent on God. If the universe is contingent then it simply is the way it is because God created it that way. Nature did not on her own create such conditions - and I have no reason to assume that nature could.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Sure. 1) With regards to prayer in Matthew 23:36, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 10:23---Mark 13:30-31--- Luke 9:27---John 21:22
                        2) with regards to the end times in Matthew 21:21-22, Matthew 7:7-8, Matthew 18:19-20, Mark 11:24-25, Luke 11:9-13, John 14:13-14, John 15:7, 15:16, and 16:23
                        3) Kings 1 22:20-23 - God puts a lying spirit in the prophets in order that they decieve Ahab so that he is killed in battle. Micaiah exposes Gods lie, but Ahab doesn't believe Micaiah and so goes to battle in spite of Micaiah's warning, and is killed.
                        Jim, I'm not going to do a Bible study with you. Just one point, God did not lie to Abab, He used a lying Spirit. In essence God gave Ahab what He wanted. If you want a deeper explanation see here: http://www.gotquestions.org/lying-spirit.html


                        And how does an omniscient God who knows all the future change his mind?
                        There are two states men can be in, Children of wrath or Children of the Kingdom. When you receive Christ as Lord and Savior, you go from one state to another. Did God always know that I would one day repent - yes.


                        If murder is not immoral in and of itself, then it is arbitrary and subject to authority. And by the way the bible has revealed the arbitrary nature of its Gods morality.
                        No Jim, murder may be arbitrary to you, but not to God. And that is all that matters in the end.

                        Yes, we are all brought up to believe certain things, that is called subjectivity. If you were brought up as a muslim, chances are that you would be a muslim.
                        So it is all subjective...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Jim, I'm not going to do a Bible study with you. Just one point, God did not lie to Abab, He used a lying Spirit. In essence God gave Ahab what He wanted. If you want a deeper explanation see here: http://www.gotquestions.org/lying-spirit.html
                          It doesn't matter how the spinners spin it seer, the fact of the matter is that God in this story gave the angels the order to lie to Ahab. That in and of itself refutes your contention that God can not and does not lie. Not to mention all the other passages I referred to.



                          There are two states men can be in, Children of wrath or Children of the Kingdom. When you receive Christ as Lord and Savior, you go from one state to another. Did God always know that I would one day repent - yes.
                          That doesn't answer the question I asked. How does an omniscient God who knows all the future change his mind?



                          No Jim, murder may be arbitrary to you, but not to God. And that is all that matters in the end.
                          You are not even responding to what I said seer. Is murder objectively wrong in and of itself or not? Lets say God changed his mind with regards to murder being wrong, would murder then be right?


                          So it is all subjective...
                          Our choices are all subjective, the overall results of those choices are objective. The choice to teach you certain morals to live by, or a culture certain morals to live by, is subjective, the overall result of those choices are objective.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            It doesn't matter how the spinners spin it seer, the fact of the matter is that God in this story gave the angels the order to lie to Ahab. That in and of itself refutes your contention that God can not and does not lie. Not to mention all the other passages I referred to.
                            This is why I don't argue scripture with recalcitrant atheists. The text does not say that God lied, but that another being was willing to deceive Ahab.



                            That doesn't answer the question I asked. How does an omniscient God who knows all the future change his mind?
                            Jim, I'm not making the case that God necessarily changes His mind, but that I can see a way that men could be on the bad side of God, then repent and be on the good side of God. But if He did change His mind, it doesn't follow that His moral character has changed. God is always what He is, loving, forgiving, just, righteous, Holy, truthful. Those characteristics are immutable. And that is where His laws are born - so they are not in the least arbitrary.


                            You are not even responding to what I said seer. Is murder objectively wrong in and of itself or not? Lets say God changed his mind with regards to murder being wrong, would murder then be right?
                            What don't you get? Murder could never be right to God. God can not violate His nature.


                            Our choices are all subjective, the overall results of those choices are objective. The choice to teach you certain morals to live by, or a culture certain morals to live by, is subjective, the overall result of those choices are objective.
                            Yes, like the objective mass slaughter of the Tutsi by the Hutu.
                            Last edited by seer; 10-21-2014, 08:42 AM.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              This is why I don't argue scripture with recalcitrant atheists. The text does not say that God lied, but that another being was willing to deceive Ahab.
                              Seer, it is clearly stated that the God of the Bible ordered his angel to go done and lie to Ahab in order that he be killed in battle. That other being was Gods angel, one of the heavenly host, and that angel was not only willing to lie, he was recruited by God to lie. That you can't admit to this is interesting.



                              What don't you get? Murder could never be right to God. God can not violate His nature.
                              I didn't ask you if murder was right to God, I asked you if murder was immoral in and of itself?
                              Last edited by JimL; 10-21-2014, 09:10 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Seer, it is clearly stated that the God of the Bible ordered his angel to go done and lie to Ahab in order that he be killed in battle. That other being was Gods angel, one of the heavenly host, and that angel was not only willing to lie, he was recruited by God to lie. That you can't admit to this is interesting.
                                Read this: http://christianthinktank.com/godlies.html

                                It helps. Your problem is that you're reading the word 'lie' and then pushing the panic-button, without doing any exegetical legwork. Things are more complicated than how you're framing the issue. Let me frame it the way Glenn Miller does, and then we go from there. Not saying Miller is automatically right; I just think he's framing the issue way better than you are. You're treating it like a simple talking-point.

                                The prophesy is 'against' Ahab, a particularly evil king of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. He typically gathered false prophets around him (as "Yes" men) and complained about the prophet Micaiah (who uttered the above) that he only 'spoke bad things about him' so Ahab did not consult with him much! (I Kgs 22.8,18)
                                As we have seen in the later case of Jeremiah and Ezek, this pattern of the rulers only listening to 'politically acceptable' prophets started early. (Remember the "IMPORTANT POINT A" above?) Compare the case of the prophet Isaiah, chronologically between Micaiah and Jeremiah, in 30.10ff:

                                " They say to the seers, "See no more visions!"
                                and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right!
                                Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
                                Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us
                                with the Holy One of Israel!"
                                God had already judged Ahab and decreed his death in 21.19, for , among other things, the innocent death of Naboth (22.1-19).

                                The sending of the 'lying spirits' is to EVENTUATE Ahab's judgment (22.20).
                                Here's the kicker:

                                The actual word for 'entice' is the 'seduce' word we saw in Jeremiah. God asks who will 'seduce/overpower' Ahab in going to his death (no mention of 'deception' yet). A spirit volunteers to be a 'lying spirit' and God grants permission, with a "go and do it". Seduction DOES NOT necessarily include deception. There were OTHER forms of the verb, and other words that could have brought that meaning out--if so intended, but they are not used in this passage.
                                This 'putting of the lying spirit' is called part of a 'disaster decree (judgment)' in 22.23.

                                This is a clear case of 'confusion' or false decisions AS A JUDGMENT.
                                Important Point B (again): In this passage it is even MORE obvious than in the cases of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Notice that this passage 20-23 is BEING GIVEN face to face to AHAB! Micaiah, in the presence of the other prophets and even the king of the Southern Kingdom, is describing this vision IN DETAIL to AHAB! Ahab has every opportunity to reject the lying spirits and accept the true message from YAHWEH! Kaiser makes this point clearly (HSOT:120f): "This principle is further confirmed when we note that the passage in question is a vision that Micaiah reveals to Ahab. God is telling Ahab, 'Wise up. I am allowing your prophets to lie to you." In a sense, God is revealing further truth to Ahab rather than lying to him. If God were truly trying to entrap Ahab into a life-threatening situation, he would not have revealed the plan to Ahab! Even so, Ahab refuses to heed God's truth and follows his prophets' advice anyway." Notice that this same dynamic of "if God were REALLY trying to deceive, why would he TELL the people?!" is operative in ALL of the OTHER CASES we have seen!
                                Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
                                George Horne

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