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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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An Infinite Past?

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Yes, but eventually there is no useable energy left. A small star for instance will burn out and become a white dwarf - where/how is the past energy of that star used? Seems to me at that point that energy is no longer useable.
    That's incorrect. "Useable" relates to a specific process. Photosynthesis occurs at specific wavelengths, converting electromagnetic energy to chemical energy. Energy that exists outside those wavelengths is not 'useable' for photosynthesis. Most animals don't have photosynthetic capabilities, so for them the light energy is not 'useable'. However, an animal (say a cow) can consume the plant and use the stored chemical energy for its own purposes, converting it in part into energy stores. For them, light energy is not useable but chemical energy is. Still other animals can consume the first animal and take the energy stored for itself without having to convert the stored energy still further. For those predators, the chemical energy from plants is not useable, but the stored energy from other animals is. It's all relative to the process you're investigating.

    In the case of a white dwarf, the star has ceased converting mass to energy. The past energy the star produced has already been emitted, and residual radiation continues to be emitted for some time. How that radiated energy was used depends on where it went. The energy hasn't stopped being useable, it has ceased to be emitted. Those are two very different things.
    I'm not here anymore.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      In the case of a white dwarf, the star has ceased converting mass to energy. The past energy the star produced has already been emitted, and residual radiation continues to be emitted for some time. How that radiated energy was used depends on where it went. The energy hasn't stopped being useable, it has ceased to be emitted. Those are two very different things.
      Ok, so how is the energy that was emitted from the dead star useable? Use as what? Or does it become so dissipated that it becomes unusable? I mean, in the big picture, if the universe ends in a heat death (as many believe) then at that point there is no useable energy left - correct?
      Last edited by seer; 04-18-2014, 11:09 AM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Nonsense Shuny. Are you saying that there are effects without a cause? I'm asking YOU, how do YOU escape an infinite chain? For instance, something in the multiverse cause this universe, but what caused that cause, and so on, and so on?
        No, there is not a direct cause and effect chain, except within a universe. Natural Law is the cause of all possible universes, and there is no cause and effect chain involved in Natural Law outside the time/space nature of all possible universes. The greater Cosmos is the medium of the forming of singularities which result in universes.

        How do you avoid a infinite cause and effect chain for God(s) and creation in your view? The only way I can see is how you choose to define God. The nature of Natural Law and the Greater Cosmos can be defined as infinite, eternal, and the birth and death place of universes.

        By the way, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. The greater cosmos outside the universes is not known to be a closed system. A cause and effect chain requires TIME.

        A possible energy source for the formation of singularities is Quantum Gravity.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-18-2014, 11:48 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Ok, so how is the energy that was emitted from the dead star useable? Use as what? Or does it become so dissipated that it becomes unusable? I mean, in the big picture, if the universe ends in a heat death (as many believe) then at that point there is no useable energy left - correct?
          Your describing the cause, effect and energy relationship within a universe, and not in the greater cosmos where singularities form to give birth to universes, where time does not exist.

          Again, a cause and effect chain requires TIME
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-18-2014, 11:51 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Nonsense Shuny. Are you saying that there are effects without a cause? I'm asking YOU, how do YOU escape an infinite chain? For instance, something in the multiverse cause this universe, but what caused that cause, and so on, and so on?
            What caused God, and the God before the God, and so on and so on? Your argument is only based on how you define God as opposed to our physical existence. I do not believe this defining of God, nor the limiting definition of our physical existence is sufficient to justify the existence of God is possible, without an intensely circular argument riddled with bad science and presuppositions.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-18-2014, 11:58 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              No, there is not a direct cause and effect chain, except within a universe. Natural Law is the cause of all possible universes, and there is no cause and effect chain involved in Natural Law outside the time/space nature of all possible universes. The greater Cosmos is the medium of the forming of singularities which result in universes.
              Shuny you are not saying anything. What causes the greater universe to create a singularity in the first place. And what physical event caused that cause?


              How do you avoid a infinite cause and effect chain for God(s) and creation in your view? The only way I can see is how you choose to define God. The nature of Natural Law and the Greater Cosmos can be defined as infinite, eternal, and the birth and death place of universes.
              Go back and read Leonhard's responses to Jim L.

              By the way, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. The greater cosmos outside the universes is not known to be a closed system. A cause and effect chain requires TIME.
              How do you know the greater cosmos isn't closed. If it is an open system then it must, be definition, be getting energy from outside itself. Where does that outside energy come from Shuny? And no time is not required - only successive physical events.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                What caused God, and the God before the God, and so on and so on? Your argument is only based on how you define God as opposed to our physical existence. I do not believe this defining of God, nor the limiting definition of our physical existence to justify the existence of God is possible, without an intensely circular argument riddled with bad science and presuppositions.
                There is not an infinite chain of physical events in God. God is not physical. Do you think God is physical Shuny? Governed by the laws of nature?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Ok, so how is the energy that was emitted from the dead star useable? Use as what? Or does it become so dissipated that it becomes unusable? I mean, in the big picture, if the universe ends in a heat death (as many believe) then at that point there is no useable energy left - correct?
                  How energy emitted from a star is used depends on what it encounters. On earth, energy emitted from the sun can be used for photosynthesis, among other things. That's the example I gave in my last post. Yes, that energy does become dissipated as it moves from places of higher energy to places of lower energy. It's hypothesized that the universe could reach a state of complete equilibrium, and that's what is referred to as heat death. Temperature becomes homogeneous. Without temperature differences, heat as a process ceases to function. Even then, energy hasn't ceased to exist. Rather, it's in a state of uniform distribution.

                  That said, there's no real indication to my knowledge that this hypothesis is correct. It follows from the 2nd Law as a possible outcome, but that's about it. There are alternative endings to this universe, and afaik we don't possess the necessary information to select between them properly. For example, cold death happens when the universe spreads out so much that energy and temperature levels are too low to sustain life (or any other process). It's conceivable that the universe could expand indefinitely until gravity ceases to hold things together, giving rise to the Big Rip. Still others think that eventually gravity will win the day and collapse the universe via the Big Crunch. Our understanding of factors like dark energy and dark matter (if they even exist) is much too poor to speculate on how the universe will end. If it does.
                  I'm not here anymore.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                    How energy emitted from a star is used depends on what it encounters. On earth, energy emitted from the sun can be used for photosynthesis, among other things. That's the example I gave in my last post. Yes, that energy does become dissipated as it moves from places of higher energy to places of lower energy. It's hypothesized that the universe could reach a state of complete equilibrium, and that's what is referred to as heat death. Temperature becomes homogeneous. Without temperature differences, heat as a process ceases to function. Even then, energy hasn't ceased to exist. Rather, it's in a state of uniform distribution.
                    But my question was Carrikature - could you imagine a situation where energy is no longer useable, or no longer working. Complete equilibrium, which is not unimaginable, would reach that state - correct?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      But my question was Carrikature - could you imagine a situation where energy is no longer useable, or no longer working. Complete equilibrium, which is not unimaginable, would reach that state - correct?
                      I can imagine such a state. Even so, that's quite a bit different than matter or energy ceasing to exist, which was your original claim.
                      I'm not here anymore.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                        I can imagine such a state. Even so, that's quite a bit different than matter or energy ceasing to exist, which was your original claim.
                        Yes, but I asked a different question. So let's try this:

                        1. If there is an infinite past there is enough time for all possibilities to be made actual.

                        2. It is possible for all energy to become unusable (or reach complete equilibrium, as you say).

                        3. Therefore energy should not presently be able to do any work.
                        Is this unimaginable Carrikature?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          There is not an infinite chain of physical events in God. God is not physical. Do you think God is physical Shuny? Governed by the laws of nature?
                          If you present this argument, both sides have to have the same consideration, whether physical or spiritual. Potentially the issue is the same in the spiritual world as an infinite chain of God(s). Mormons like this idea. No, I consider God spiritual, and I believe in God. It is argument that does not pass muster.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-18-2014, 04:57 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Yes, but I asked a different question. So let's try this:

                            1. If there is an infinite past there is enough time for all possibilities to be made actual.

                            2. It is possible for all energy to become unusable (or reach complete equilibrium, as you say).

                            3. Therefore energy should not presently be able to do any work.


                            Is this unimaginable Carrikature?

                            It's not unimaginable, but it brings us back to my original reply. Premise one is incomplete, since time alone is insufficient to establish that all possibilities will be made actual. Premise two you already recognize as flawed, since what is or is not possible is unknown. Even if premise one were granted, it's too premature to grant premise two. We just don't know enough yet.
                            I'm not here anymore.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But my question was Carrikature - could you imagine a situation where energy is no longer useable, or no longer working. Complete equilibrium, which is not unimaginable, would reach that state - correct?
                              Actually, imagining such state of energy is not the issue. In science the Quantum world is the lowest possible state of the basis for matter and energy and it remains usable and functional. There is no evidence for a ground state of energy that is not useable.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Shuny you are not saying anything. What causes the greater universe to create a singularity in the first place. And what physical event caused that cause?
                                Natural Law causes the formation of the singularity. Natural Law does not have a cause.




                                Go back and read Leonhard's responses to Jim L.
                                Which post? I will look, but unfortunately I doubt it was answered.

                                How do you know the greater cosmos isn't closed. If it is an open system then it must, be definition, be getting energy from outside itself. Where does that outside energy come from Shuny? And no time is not required - only successive physical events.
                                No if it is open it does not have to have an outside source. It is infinite and eternal. How do you know it is closed?

                                Yes, if you have cause and effect in a chain of events, you must have time involved. You cannot explain how change and effect chain of events can take place without time
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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