Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

5,000+ Gods

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 5,000+ Gods

    How do you know your deity is right?

    The link can be found here.

    ------

    How do you know you have the right deity? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    It's understandable that when it comes to major issues, many of us have strong opinions. It's understandable that many of us seek to be informed on those opinions. It's understandable that many times we will want to talk to others about those opinions who agree and disagree with us and want to either share encouragement or change minds respectively.

    It's not understandable though that people share nonsense all the while thinking that they are sharing a powerful argument. One such case recently happened on the Unbelievable? Facebook page. An atheist, no doubt convinced he had a brilliant argument, shared the following meme and asked what the way is Christians find out of this particular dilemma.

    5000gods.jpg

    People who post this stuff really don't bother to understand world religions at all. For instance, consider the Buddha. Many Buddhists in the classical system would be seen as atheistic and not think the Buddha is a deity. The Hindu pantheon has several lesser gods, some more prominent than others, but nothing seen as a sort of ultimate deity. Many would have no problem saying that of course there are 5,000 gods, but could say that all of them are real.*

    Let's start with something simple though. All truth claims are exclusive. If I say 2 + 2 = 4, then any person who says an answer that is contrary to 4 is wrong. We could say to people who think I am the husband of Allie Licona Peters that "There are billions of men on this planet who could be her husband, but don't worry, the claim that Nick Peters is the only right answer." Of course, it is.*

    How could this work with atheism? Just replace gods with worldviews. There are almost 5,000 worldviews being believed by humanity. Don't worry. Yours is right. After all, atheism is just a strong a claim. It's a strong claim if the meme is true to say that you worship the right God out of 5,000 or so. It's a strong claim to say that you are right and everyone else is entirely wrong because none of those deities are real.*

    The meme when looking at the question also assumes that all deities have the same amount of evidence for their existence and all religions do as well. Are we really to think that, for instance, archaeologically, the Book of Mormon can begin to compare with the New Testament, or even the Old Testament for that matter? You could if perhaps you right at the start assume that all of the systems are nonsense, which would just be begging the question.

    This is something Matthew McCormick did in his book*The Case Against Christ. He made a list of 500 deities that were thought to be ominpotent, omniscient, eternal, etc. He then said that these gods are no longer worshiped this way. Well, I did something rather odd there. I actually went and looked up all of these gods. Any that were seen that way could be counted on one hand. You can see some of my doing this here including his big gaffe.

    What needs to happen then is something that should be obvious to the atheists who say they care so much about evidence, but they often forget. That is to look at the evidence. That means when the theist pulls up the evidence for whatever deity they believe in, you actually look at it and consider it.*

    If you asked me why I believe in the deity I hold to, I would say that it is the most logically consistent for me. It is very similar to the one Aristotle arrived at in his philosophy. I go with the Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments. It would be quite long to go into here so that will be for another day.

    Then when I look at Christianity, I say the evidence for Jesus is overwhelming. To deny His existence is ridiculous. Other theories I see trying to explain the data surrounding the resurrection I find completely lacking. I say this also by the way as one who has read much on the other side. (I often ask an atheist when the last time they read an academic work that disagreed with them was and I very often get crickets in response.)

    There are other points. For instance, the number of other deities is actually much more than 5,000. Also, saying one religion is right does not mean that all religions are entirely wrong in everything that they believe. There are great truths in many of the other world religions.*

    I am of the firm stance that a meme is not an argument. If you have made your argument, you can illustrate it with a meme, but the meme itself is not the argument. People who think it is I find to generally be shallow thinkers. That includes Christians and non-Christians both. Stupidity can be found among the proponents of any belief system just as intelligence can.*

    Looking at the thread, I do not see any theist that is concerned about the argument. I'm certainly not, but I figured it would be a good example to post here and one question I'm not sure if I've ever tackled on the blog. We can hope that the poster will start citing some academic sources in making his whole argument, but I am skeptical that that will ever happen.*

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Process of elimination, if God doesn't exist, I am no worse off being a Christian as any other religion or an atheist.

    If buddhism or hinduism is true I am no worse off being a Christian because I will just be reincarnated anyway.

    If Islam is true, then as one of the people of the book, I will be judged the same as any muslim and if I have more good than bad in my soul I will go to heaven.

    If Judaism is true, at least modern Judaism, then who the heck knows? But they have no sacrifices and no messiah so whatever happens to me can't be any worse than what happens to them.

    New age religions? None of them have any salvational teaching so I am on the same boat as everyone else

    Old Polytheistic religions? Pretty sure those Gods like Jupiter and Odin were capricious enough that it doesn't matter who believes in them. Can't know what is going to happen to anyone.

    So I see no downside in choosing Christianity and only an upside.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Process of elimination, if God doesn't exist, I am no worse off being a Christian as any other religion or an atheist.

      If buddhism or hinduism is true I am no worse off being a Christian because I will just be reincarnated anyway.

      If Islam is true, then as one of the people of the book, I will be judged the same as any muslim and if I have more good than bad in my soul I will go to heaven.

      If Judaism is true, at least modern Judaism, then who the heck knows? But they have no sacrifices and no messiah so whatever happens to me can't be any worse than what happens to them.

      New age religions? None of them have any salvational teaching so I am on the same boat as everyone else

      Old Polytheistic religions? Pretty sure those Gods like Jupiter and Odin were capricious enough that it doesn't matter who believes in them. Can't know what is going to happen to anyone.

      So I see no downside in choosing Christianity and only an upside.
      Blaise Pascal approves.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        So I see no downside in choosing Christianity and only an upside.
        1. Let's grant a creator deity with an interest in the eternal companionship of a select portion of humanity.
        2. Let's grant that there isn't sufficient evidence to support the principle tenet of Christianity: that acceptance of the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus grants entree to that eternal companionship.
        3. Let's grant that being in the actual presence of that deity is sufficient evidence.
        4. Let's grant that the creator deity would prefer to leave the gullible behind.


        Clearly, in these circumstances, only atheists will be enjoying eternal life with the creator.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't think that we as Christians should say there is "no downside". Jesus was clear to would-be disciples that they need to count the cost and that full commitment on earth is required, even to the point of death.

          Pascal's Wager as is often explained in popular discourse (not sure how Pascal actually worded it) seems to imply that affirmative consent to the existence of God is all that is needed but that's just not what Christianity teaches.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            1. Let's grant a creator deity with an interest in the eternal companionship of a select portion of humanity.
            2. Let's grant that there isn't sufficient evidence to support the principle tenet of Christianity: that acceptance of the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus grants entree to that eternal companionship.
            3. Let's grant that being in the actual presence of that deity is sufficient evidence.
            4. Let's grant that the creator deity would prefer to leave the gullible behind.


            Clearly, in these circumstances, only atheists will be enjoying eternal life with the creator.

            So God wants to spend eternity with people who think he doesn't exist. What would they talk about?

            God: So guys, what up? How are you liking heaven.

            Atheist 1: Did you hear something?

            Atheist 2: Must be the wind blowing through the trees. Sometimes it can sound like a voice.

            God: Are you blind? I am standing right in front of you!!!

            Atheist 1: My vision is playing tricks on me again. I need to lay off the 'shrooms.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              So God wants to spend eternity with people who think he doesn't exist. What would they talk about?

              God: So guys, what up? How are you liking heaven.

              Atheist 1: Did you hear something?

              Atheist 2: Must be the wind blowing through the trees. Sometimes it can sound like a voice.

              God: Are you blind? I am standing right in front of you!!!

              Atheist 1: My vision is playing tricks on me again. I need to lay off the 'shrooms.
              In toasti's hypothetical, being in the presence of deity would be sufficient evidence; thus, if the deity were standing right in front of them, they would no longer be atheists. In other words, only atheists in this life would spend eternity with the deity, but they would no longer be atheists. Clever.

              Of course, only his first proposition squares with Christian tenets. I'll pretend I didn't see his grammatical gaffe.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                In toasti's hypothetical, being in the presence of deity would be sufficient evidence; thus, if the deity were standing right in front of them, they would no longer be atheists. In other words, only atheists in this life would spend eternity with the deity, but they would no longer be atheists. Clever.

                Of course, only his first proposition squares with Christian tenets. I'll pretend I didn't see his grammatical gaffe.
                so basically God wouldn't want to be with the only people who actually believed he existed and were right about it, but with those who didn't believe he existed and were wrong about it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think another point can be made that Christians need not necessarily deny that other gods (little "g") exist. Going with something like Michael Heiser's view on the divine council in his work The Unseen Realm, the Old Testament often mentions the elohim (which is a close parallel to our word for "god"), which refer to both the Creator, who was alone worthy of worship, and those spiritual entities who were on the divine council, who were appointed over nations, and who were unjust and received undeserved worship. It really comes down to how one defines the word "god". There is only one God, in that, there is only one who is worthy of the title "all powerful", "King of kings", and "worthy of worship", but there are also many lesser spiritual principalities and powers who've attempted to claim that which is not theirs.

                  Furthermore, I think you're right to point out that a false dilemma is made that one should either accept that all gods are right or that none are. Not sure why anyone should accept that.

                  I think when you tell atheists that you don't necessarily deny the existence of other gods past and present, and that you don't agree with the claim that, "I just believe in one god less than you do", it really takes the air out of their sails, and they have to move on to one of their other favorite memes.
                  Last edited by Adrift; 10-23-2017, 04:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Process of elimination, if God doesn't exist, I am no worse off being a Christian as any other religion or an atheist.

                    If buddhism or hinduism is true I am no worse off being a Christian because I will just be reincarnated anyway.

                    If Islam is true, then as one of the people of the book, I will be judged the same as any muslim and if I have more good than bad in my soul I will go to heaven.

                    If Judaism is true, at least modern Judaism, then who the heck knows? But they have no sacrifices and no messiah so whatever happens to me can't be any worse than what happens to them.

                    New age religions? None of them have any salvational teaching so I am on the same boat as everyone else

                    Old Polytheistic religions? Pretty sure those Gods like Jupiter and Odin were capricious enough that it doesn't matter who believes in them. Can't know what is going to happen to anyone.

                    So I see no downside in choosing Christianity and only an upside.
                    Due to the doctrine of abrogation the underlined isn't true.

                    Source: Quran

                    Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. S. 5:72-73

                    And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! S. 9:30

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    If certain hadith are taken as authoritative, as many Muslims do, then Christians are thrown into hell to allow Muslims a free pass.

                    Source: Sahih Muslim

                    Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) said:
                    No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ).

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I don't think that we as Christians should say there is "no downside". Jesus was clear to would-be disciples that they need to count the cost and that full commitment on earth is required, even to the point of death.

                      Pascal's Wager as is often explained in popular discourse (not sure how Pascal actually worded it) seems to imply that affirmative consent to the existence of God is all that is needed but that's just not what Christianity teaches.
                      As I understand it, that isn't quite right. Pascal's Wager is founded on the premise that if one were in the position where the evidence between belief in the Christian God, or no God at all was about even, then Pascal's wager offers another reason to come down on the God side. It's not an apologetic intended to make Christians out of people, it's simply intended to nudge people (all things being equal) in one direction over another.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        Due to the doctrine of abrogation the underlined isn't true.

                        Source: Quran

                        Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. S. 5:72-73

                        And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! S. 9:30

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        If certain hadith are taken as authoritative, as many Muslims do, then Christians are thrown into hell to allow Muslims a free pass.

                        Source: Sahih Muslim

                        Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) said:
                        No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ).

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        There are Hadith, though, which paint hell as a sort of purgatory, so depending on who you talk to, even if a person of the book were to go to hell, he might not stay there permanently.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          There are Hadith, though, which paint hell as a sort of purgatory, so depending on who you talk to, even if a person of the book were to go to hell, he might not stay there permanently.
                          The Quran itself is more "ambiguous" in certain verses, but others clearly state that hell is eternal punishment.

                          Source: Quran

                          As to those who reject Faith, - if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty. Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but NEVER will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures. S. 5:36-37

                          "Taste ye then - for ye forgot the Meeting of this Day of yours, and We too will forget you - taste ye the Penalty of Eternity for your (evil) deeds!" S. 32:14

                          Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire: therein will be for them the Eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Signs. S. 41:28

                          Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life! S. 50:34

                          One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as God willeth." for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. S. 6:128

                          Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth. And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein so long for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break. S. 11:106-108

                          [On that Day,] verily, hell will lie in wait [for those who deny the truth] – a goal for all who are wont to transgress the bounds of what is right! In it shall they remain for a long time. S. 78:21-23 Asad

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            I think another point can be made that Christians need not necessarily deny that other gods (little "g") exist. Going with something like Michael Heiser's view on the divine council in his work The Unseen Realm, the Old Testament often mentions the elohim (which is a close parallel to our word for "god"), which refer to both the Creator, who was alone worthy of worship, and those spiritual entities who were on the divine council, who were appointed over nations, and who were unjust and received undeserved worship. It really comes down to how one defines the word "god". There is only one God, in that, there is only one who is worthy of the title "all powerful", "King of kings", and "worthy of worship", but there are also many lesser spiritual principalities and powers who've attempted to claim that which is not theirs.

                            Furthermore, I think you're right to point out that a false dilemma is made that one should either accept that all gods are right or that none are. Not sure why anyone should accept that.

                            I think when you tell atheists that you don't necessarily deny the existence of other gods past and present, and that you don't agree with the claim that, "I just believe in one god less than you do", it really takes the air out of their sails, and they have to move on to one of their other favorite memes.
                            I don't recall any of the apologists from the first 4 centuries making the argument that other gods did not exist - the very time when Christianity had the most competition from them.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              I'll pretend I didn't see his grammatical gaffe.
                              If I fail to grant the existence of that gaffe, would that make up the grammatical deficit?

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              so basically God wouldn't want to be with the only people who actually believed he existed and were right about it, but with those who didn't believe he existed and were wrong about it.
                              Really, have you forgotten everything atheists have told you about atheism? The atheists don't have to be wrong. Belief held in abeyance is sufficient. Obviously, your mental processes have been eroded by too much bacon.

                              /winthread

                              Sometimes it pays better to be wrong for the right reason, than right for the wrong one.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
                              14 responses
                              75 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
                              6 responses
                              62 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
                              1 response
                              23 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
                              7 responses
                              63 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Working...
                              X