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Thread: First born of all creation?

  1. #31
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    From the site you referenced

    The title “firstborn of the dead” for Jesus is of great theological importance, especially with Easter in the background. The Greek word for “firstborn” that John uses is prōtotokos, a word that literally refers to birth order—the first child born.


    Maybe it doesn't. The word in the Koine texts seems to be active, not passive. Unfortunately, the Theological dictionaries provide the meaning generally ascribed by the churches: non theological dictionaries provide

    πρωτότοκ-ος (parox.), Dor. πρᾱτοτόκος , ον , bearing or having borne her first-born , μήτηρ π ., of a heifer, Il. 17.5 ; αἴξ Theoc. 5.27 ; ὗς, ταὧς , Arist. HA 546a12 , 564a30 ; κύων Dsc. 2.70.6 ; of women, Pl. Tht. 151c , 161a ; νύμφη Orph. L. 193 . II proparox. πρωτότοκος, ον , Pass. , first-born , LXX Ge. 22.21 ,al., Ev.Luc. 2.7 , PLips. 28.15 (iv A.D.) , Man. 3.9 ; τὰ π. τῶν προβάτων LXX Ge. 4.4 , cf. PMag. Osl. 1.312 ; π. ἐγὼ ἢ σύ LXX 2 Ki. 19.43 .
    2. metaph., π. πάσης κτίσεως Ep.Col. 1.15 ; of Homer, opp. Nicander, AP 9.213.
    How does this change the meaning in Colossians 1:15? Given the term use in Colossians 1:18 which that verse 18 cross references to both Revelation 1:5 & 3:14. And the common usage in Hebrews 1:6 (Hebrews 1:5-6; Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33); Romans 8:29 (1 Corinthians 15:20, 23; Acts 26:23).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #32
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    How does this change the meaning in Colossians 1:15? Given the term use in Colossians 1:18 which that verse 18 cross references to both Revelation 1:5 & 3:14. And the common usage in Hebrews 1:6 (Hebrews 1:5-6; Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33); Romans 8:29 (1 Corinthians 15:20, 23; Acts 26:23).
    I don't know that it does change the meaning. Just have questions about what it might mean.
    Your post (particularly reference to Rev 3:14) raises more questions, but it also opens a line of enquiry.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  3. #33
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I don't know that it does change the meaning. Just have questions about what it might mean.
    Your post (particularly reference to Rev 3:14) raises more questions, but it also opens a line of enquiry.
    Note that Revelation 1:5, ". . . the faithful witness, . . ." and Colossians 1:18, ". . . the beginning . . ." both uniquely precede " . . . firstborn of the dead . . ." and uniquely cross reference Revelation 3:14, ". . .the faithful . . . witness, the beginning . . . ."

    And the fact that the incarnate Christ as the incarnate Christ is of creation being the incarnate Christ.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. #34
    tWebber
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    As that text show Jesus is a Creation of God thus not Almighty God an is Revelation 3:14 were Jesus is called "The Amen."
    BU

  5. #35
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    As that text show Jesus is a Creation of God thus not Almighty God an is Revelation 3:14 were Jesus is called "The Amen."
    BU

    You are not a Christian. Jesus is not a creation, but the Creator.

    You've been told to change your faith tag. If you do not do so within the next 10 hours I will be changing it for you, and you will not be allowed to change it back.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  6. #36
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    As that text show Jesus is a Creation of God thus not Almighty God an is Revelation 3:14 were Jesus is called "The Amen."
    BU
    The preincarnte Christ is the Creator (Ephesians 3:9; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17). Now Jesus became part of His creation through His incarnation (John 1:3, 14) Being a man made Him a part of creation (Colossians 1:15, 18; Revelation 1:5; 3:14).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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