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First born of all creation?

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  • First born of all creation?

    In Colossians 1:15 Paul states that Jesus is the first born of all creation. So how can Jesus be both God and be created?

  • #2
    It means first born in the sense of "heir" - the first born son is preeminent. It doesn't mean he is created. It means he is preeminent over creation.


    You can understand this if you read the passage in CONTEXT.

    15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    It is actually teaching that Christ created everything and is God.
    Last edited by Sparko; 10-24-2017, 07:29 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      In Colossians 1:15 Paul states that Jesus is the first born of all creation. So how can Jesus be both God and be created?
      The answer is found in v.18, ". . . who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

      When the Word [the Logos] of God was "made" flesh (John 1:14) He became part of His own creation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17).

      And He being the first immortal man (Hebrews 13:8) is the beginning of the new heaven and new earth to come (Romans 8:22, 23, 29 ". . . firstborn among many brethren . . . ;" Revelation 21:1).
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity.
        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
        Save me, save me"

        Comment


        • #5
          This is truly amazing! Jimmy has come up with a question that for 2,000 years no Christian theologian has discovered.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            This is truly amazing! Jimmy has come up with a question that for 2,000 years no Christian theologian has discovered.

            2 in one day, even!!


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #7
              You know how the firstborn kid gets to boss around and look after the littler ones? Well, Jesus is like that. He is the King of kings and He gave His life for us so we wouldn't get in serious trouble for our naughtiness!
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity.
                The Son of God became part of His creation through the incarnation(John 1:14). So in the resurrection He is indeed part of His creation. The term "firstborn" is used to refer to Him being resurrected (Colossians 1:15, 18; Romans 8:29; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5).
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  The Son of God became part of His creation through the incarnation(John 1:14). So in the resurrection He is indeed part of His creation. The term "firstborn" is used to refer to Him being resurrected (Colossians 1:15, 18; Romans 8:29; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5).
                  Did you miss the "also" in my post, or is there some other quibble to bring to my attention? I don't see how both answers aren't true. "First born over creation" encompasses a lot of meaning in the phrase.

                  fwiw,
                  guacamole
                  "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                  Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                  Save me, save me"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                    Did you miss the "also" in my post, or is there some other quibble to bring to my attention? I don't see how both answers aren't true. "First born over creation" encompasses a lot of meaning in the phrase.

                    fwiw,
                    guacamole
                    Respectfully, that is not what the text means. As Creator (v.16-17, John 1:3) He is preeminent. The adding the word "over" is not translation but imposing a meaning not according to the text. The text refers to Him as a creature who is "the firstborn of every creature." That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence." Not just preeminence as God the Creator but preeminence also as His creation being a created being by way of His incarnation and His resurrection to be the first immortal man to be the first of His new creation (Colossians 1:18; Romans 8:22-23, 29, Revelation 1:5; 21:1).
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Respectfully, that is not what the text means. As Creator (v.16-17, John 1:3) He is preeminent. The adding the word "over" is not translation but imposing a meaning not according to the text. The text refers to Him as a creature who is "the firstborn of every creature." That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence." Not just preeminence as God the Creator but preeminence also as His creation being a created being by way of His incarnation and His resurrection to be the first immortal man to be the first of His new creation (Colossians 1:18; Romans 8:22-23, 29, Revelation 1:5; 21:1).
                      I said, "Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity." Which is so immediately parallel to "That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence" that your "Respectfully, that is not what the text means"(of which plurality of texts dealing with the metaphor of "first born"?) is wrong headed. The "also" meant that I was pointing out something in addition to other things, said in the conversation and unsaid, but relevant. It was not meant to be a comprehensive doctrinal exposition. The interpretation of "also" in my comment is simple grammar.

                      fwiw,
                      guacamole
                      "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                      Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                      Save me, save me"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                        I said, "Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity." Which is so immediately parallel to "That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence" that your "Respectfully, that is not what the text means"(of which plurality of texts dealing with the metaphor of "first born"?) is wrong headed. The "also" meant that I was pointing out something in addition to other things, said in the conversation and unsaid, but relevant. It was not meant to be a comprehensive doctrinal exposition. The interpretation of "also" in my comment is simple grammar.

                        fwiw,
                        guacamole
                        We disagree on the meaning of "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 & 18. Now if you have another Biblical reference that gives you your reason for your view, I am interested.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          We disagree on the meaning of "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 & 18. Now if you have another Biblical reference that gives you your reason for your view, I am interested.
                          Are you being disingenuous, or are you literally unaware of the significance of the concept of "first born" in both the Old and New Testament? There's no reason that the text in the OP is the only text from which to draw conclusions about what it means to say that Christ is the "First born of/over creation."

                          fwiw,
                          guacamole
                          "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                          Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                          Save me, save me"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                            Are you being disingenuous, or are you literally unaware of the significance of the concept of "first born" in both the Old and New Testament? There's no reason that the text in the OP is the only text from which to draw conclusions about what it means to say that Christ is the "First born of/over creation."

                            fwiw,
                            guacamole
                            The Biblical use of the term "firstborn" in regards to resurrected Christ is one meaning as used in that regard as found in the NT. I did that deductive study over 40 years ago. So if you can show your metaphorical or other meaning giving Biblical support please do so.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The earliest metaphorical use of "firstborn" is Israel being called metaphorically God's "son" and so being called God's "firstborn," pointing to the incarnate human Christ (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15). And the Biblical use of the metaphor "firstborn" in regards to Christ as used in the NT is explicitly used referring to Him being raised from the dead (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5). And that meaning is confirmed by prophecy and in its claimed fulfilment (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6).
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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