In Colossians 1:15 Paul states that Jesus is the first born of all creation. So how can Jesus be both God and be created?
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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First born of all creation?
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It means first born in the sense of "heir" - the first born son is preeminent. It doesn't mean he is created. It means he is preeminent over creation.
You can understand this if you read the passage in CONTEXT.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
It is actually teaching that Christ created everything and is God.Last edited by Sparko; 10-24-2017, 07:29 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIn Colossians 1:15 Paul states that Jesus is the first born of all creation. So how can Jesus be both God and be created?
When the Word [the Logos] of God was "made" flesh (John 1:14) He became part of His own creation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17).
And He being the first immortal man (Hebrews 13:8) is the beginning of the new heaven and new earth to come (Romans 8:22, 23, 29 ". . . firstborn among many brethren . . . ;" Revelation 21:1).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity."Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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This is truly amazing! Jimmy has come up with a question that for 2,000 years no Christian theologian has discovered.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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You know how the firstborn kid gets to boss around and look after the littler ones? Well, Jesus is like that. He is the King of kings and He gave His life for us so we wouldn't get in serious trouble for our naughtiness!If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostFirstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe Son of God became part of His creation through the incarnation(John 1:14). So in the resurrection He is indeed part of His creation. The term "firstborn" is used to refer to Him being resurrected (Colossians 1:15, 18; Romans 8:29; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5).
fwiw,
guacamole"Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostDid you miss the "also" in my post, or is there some other quibble to bring to my attention? I don't see how both answers aren't true. "First born over creation" encompasses a lot of meaning in the phrase.
fwiw,
guacamole. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostRespectfully, that is not what the text means. As Creator (v.16-17, John 1:3) He is preeminent. The adding the word "over" is not translation but imposing a meaning not according to the text. The text refers to Him as a creature who is "the firstborn of every creature." That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence." Not just preeminence as God the Creator but preeminence also as His creation being a created being by way of His incarnation and His resurrection to be the first immortal man to be the first of His new creation (Colossians 1:18; Romans 8:22-23, 29, Revelation 1:5; 21:1).
fwiw,
guacamole"Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostI said, "Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity." Which is so immediately parallel to "That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence" that your "Respectfully, that is not what the text means"(of which plurality of texts dealing with the metaphor of "first born"?) is wrong headed. The "also" meant that I was pointing out something in addition to other things, said in the conversation and unsaid, but relevant. It was not meant to be a comprehensive doctrinal exposition. The interpretation of "also" in my comment is simple grammar.
fwiw,
guacamole. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWe disagree on the meaning of "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 & 18. Now if you have another Biblical reference that gives you your reason for your view, I am interested.
fwiw,
guacamole"Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
Comment
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostAre you being disingenuous, or are you literally unaware of the significance of the concept of "first born" in both the Old and New Testament? There's no reason that the text in the OP is the only text from which to draw conclusions about what it means to say that Christ is the "First born of/over creation."
fwiw,
guacamole. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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The earliest metaphorical use of "firstborn" is Israel being called metaphorically God's "son" and so being called God's "firstborn," pointing to the incarnate human Christ (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15). And the Biblical use of the metaphor "firstborn" in regards to Christ as used in the NT is explicitly used referring to Him being raised from the dead (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5). And that meaning is confirmed by prophecy and in its claimed fulfilment (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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