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First born of all creation?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    The earliest metaphorical use of "firstborn" is Israel being called metaphorically God's "son" and so being called God's "firstborn," pointing to the incarnate human Christ (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15). And the Biblical use of the metaphor "firstborn" in regards to Christ as used in the NT is explicitly used referring to Him being raised from the dead (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5). And that meaning is confirmed by prophecy and in its claimed fulfilment (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6).
    Firstborn, as a position of authority is well attested--I'm not inclined to split semantic hairs with you over this. "ALSO" is grammatically simple; it's inclusive of what I wrote and what others wrote. There's no reason to try and scalpel that out unless you have some heterodox agenda to push.
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by guacamole View Post
      Firstborn, as a position of authority is well attested--I'm not inclined to split semantic hairs with you over this. "ALSO" is grammatically simple; it's inclusive of what I wrote and what others wrote. There's no reason to try and scalpel that out unless you have some heterodox agenda to push.
      What I simply argued according to holy scripture cannot be called heterodox. You have not given any Biblical support. Do this then, give a couple citations from some Bible scholars.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          There are at least 4 interpretations of the phrase "firstborn of all creation." I have argued one of them. Hank Hanegraaff has presented the other three. What Hank does not present is the view that the term "firstborn" refers to the resurrection of Christ (Colossians 1:18).

          http://www.equip.org/perspectives/co...-all-creation/
          Last edited by 37818; 10-31-2017, 08:12 AM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            What I simply argued according to holy scripture cannot be called heterodox. You have not given any Biblical support. Do this then, give a couple citations from some Bible scholars.
            If you want me to debate your heterodox ideas, start a thread in a different forum, likely Biblical Languages, or theology.
            "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
            Hear my cry, hear my shout,
            Save me, save me"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"
              I can only guess by idiom; the firstborn (male) child was the primary bearer of the line of descent. The literal meaning of the word, as you know, has nothing at all to do with temporality or birth.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"
                Justin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Justin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
                  This has little to with his question, and the part which actually does is wrong. The word does not literally refer to birth order; it literally refers to the status of the firstborn.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                    If you want me to debate your heterodox ideas, start a thread in a different forum, likely Biblical Languages, or theology.
                    I started a thread in Unorthodox Theology for this since you are contending my views are heterodox. Please replay to this post only there. Thank you.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      This has little to with his question, and the part which actually does is wrong. The word does not literally refer to birth order; it literally refers to the status of the firstborn.
                      The word literally refers to birth order and that the firstborn have special status being firstborn. Hence what happed in Egypt with that original Passover. (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15 as to Christ.)
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        The word literally refers to birth order and that the firstborn have special status being firstborn. Hence what happed in Egypt with that original Passover. (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15 as to Christ.)
                        Repeating the assertion with cites where the word is used does not make it any more correct.

                        Here are two words to assist your understanding:

                        protonotary - a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.

                        Theotokos - usually translated "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver of God", a term of honor for Mary, the mother of Jesus.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Repeating the assertion with cites where the word is used does not make it any more correct.

                          Here are two words to assist your understanding:

                          protonotary - a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.

                          Theotokos - usually translated "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver of God", a term of honor for Mary, the mother of Jesus.
                          Neither of those words are what we are discussing. Prototokos translated firstborn. And the fact that it is used of Christ being the first of the resurrection of the dead (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5; Colossians 1:15, 18).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Neither of those words are what we are discussing. Prototokos translated firstborn. And the fact that it is used of Christ being the first of the resurrection of the dead (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5; Colossians 1:15, 18).
                            I appear to be utterly failing to get my point across. Do you understand that both words I posted contain elements from prototokos? Do you understand why taking the translation literally might therefore be problematic? Your citations are not refuting my explanation in the slightest; that you continue to post them as if they do merely shows your continued misunderstanding.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              I appear to be utterly failing to get my point across. Do you understand that both words I posted contain elements from prototokos? Do you understand why taking the translation literally might therefore be problematic? Your citations are not refuting my explanation in the slightest; that you continue to post them as if they do merely shows your continued misunderstanding.
                              What is my misunderstanding then? I showed the term translated "firstborn" is used to refer to Christ's resurrection in the references cited. The literal use would be Luke 2:7. As a figure or metaphor refers to Christ being the first from the dead. Now you take exception to this. Explain your understanding. The meaning of the word as used in Colossians 1:15 is as stated in verse 18. The linked verses to v.18 in Revelation are 1:5 & 3:14 with the understanding of 21:1.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Justin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
                                From the site you referenced

                                The title “firstborn of the dead” for Jesus is of great theological importance, especially with Easter in the background. The Greek word for “firstborn” that John uses is prōtotokos, a word that literally refers to birth order—the first child born.


                                Maybe it doesn't. The word in the Koine texts seems to be active, not passive. Unfortunately, the Theological dictionaries provide the meaning generally ascribed by the churches: non theological dictionaries provide

                                πρωτότοκ-ος (parox.), Dor. πρᾱτοτόκος , ον , bearing or having borne her first-born , μήτηρ π ., of a heifer, Il. 17.5 ; αἴξ Theoc. 5.27 ; ὗς, ταὧς , Arist. HA 546a12 , 564a30 ; κύων Dsc. 2.70.6 ; of women, Pl. Tht. 151c , 161a ; νύμφη Orph. L. 193 . II proparox. πρωτότοκος, ον , Pass. , first-born , LXX Ge. 22.21 ,al., Ev.Luc. 2.7 , PLips. 28.15 (iv A.D.) , Man. 3.9 ; τὰ π. τῶν προβάτων LXX Ge. 4.4 , cf. PMag. Osl. 1.312 ; π. ἐγὼ ἢ σύ LXX 2 Ki. 19.43 .
                                2. metaph., π. πάσης κτίσεως Ep.Col. 1.15 ; of Homer, opp. Nicander, AP 9.213.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 10-31-2017, 08:51 PM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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