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Thread: First born of all creation?

  1. #11
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Respectfully, that is not what the text means. As Creator (v.16-17, John 1:3) He is preeminent. The adding the word "over" is not translation but imposing a meaning not according to the text. The text refers to Him as a creature who is "the firstborn of every creature." That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence." Not just preeminence as God the Creator but preeminence also as His creation being a created being by way of His incarnation and His resurrection to be the first immortal man to be the first of His new creation (Colossians 1:18; Romans 8:22-23, 29, Revelation 1:5; 21:1).
    I said, "Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity." Which is so immediately parallel to "That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence" that your "Respectfully, that is not what the text means"(of which plurality of texts dealing with the metaphor of "first born"?) is wrong headed. The "also" meant that I was pointing out something in addition to other things, said in the conversation and unsaid, but relevant. It was not meant to be a comprehensive doctrinal exposition. The interpretation of "also" in my comment is simple grammar.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

  2. #12
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    I said, "Firstborn is also a title reflective of authority, thus "Firstborn of all Creation" indicates authority over creation, not necessarily a created entity." Which is so immediately parallel to "That is important in order that "in all [things] He might have preeminence" that your "Respectfully, that is not what the text means"(of which plurality of texts dealing with the metaphor of "first born"?) is wrong headed. The "also" meant that I was pointing out something in addition to other things, said in the conversation and unsaid, but relevant. It was not meant to be a comprehensive doctrinal exposition. The interpretation of "also" in my comment is simple grammar.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    We disagree on the meaning of "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 & 18. Now if you have another Biblical reference that gives you your reason for your view, I am interested.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. #13
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    We disagree on the meaning of "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 & 18. Now if you have another Biblical reference that gives you your reason for your view, I am interested.
    Are you being disingenuous, or are you literally unaware of the significance of the concept of "first born" in both the Old and New Testament? There's no reason that the text in the OP is the only text from which to draw conclusions about what it means to say that Christ is the "First born of/over creation."

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Are you being disingenuous, or are you literally unaware of the significance of the concept of "first born" in both the Old and New Testament? There's no reason that the text in the OP is the only text from which to draw conclusions about what it means to say that Christ is the "First born of/over creation."

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    The Biblical use of the term "firstborn" in regards to resurrected Christ is one meaning as used in that regard as found in the NT. I did that deductive study over 40 years ago. So if you can show your metaphorical or other meaning giving Biblical support please do so.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    The earliest metaphorical use of "firstborn" is Israel being called metaphorically God's "son" and so being called God's "firstborn," pointing to the incarnate human Christ (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15). And the Biblical use of the metaphor "firstborn" in regards to Christ as used in the NT is explicitly used referring to Him being raised from the dead (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5). And that meaning is confirmed by prophecy and in its claimed fulfilment (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #16
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The earliest metaphorical use of "firstborn" is Israel being called metaphorically God's "son" and so being called God's "firstborn," pointing to the incarnate human Christ (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15). And the Biblical use of the metaphor "firstborn" in regards to Christ as used in the NT is explicitly used referring to Him being raised from the dead (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5). And that meaning is confirmed by prophecy and in its claimed fulfilment (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6).
    Firstborn, as a position of authority is well attested--I'm not inclined to split semantic hairs with you over this. "ALSO" is grammatically simple; it's inclusive of what I wrote and what others wrote. There's no reason to try and scalpel that out unless you have some heterodox agenda to push.
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Firstborn, as a position of authority is well attested--I'm not inclined to split semantic hairs with you over this. "ALSO" is grammatically simple; it's inclusive of what I wrote and what others wrote. There's no reason to try and scalpel that out unless you have some heterodox agenda to push.
    What I simply argued according to holy scripture cannot be called heterodox. You have not given any Biblical support. Do this then, give a couple citations from some Bible scholars.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. #18
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  10. Amen One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  11. #19
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    There are at least 4 interpretations of the phrase "firstborn of all creation." I have argued one of them. Hank Hanegraaff has presented the other three. What Hank does not present is the view that the term "firstborn" refers to the resurrection of Christ (Colossians 1:18).

    http://www.equip.org/perspectives/co...-all-creation/
    Last edited by 37818; 10-31-2017 at 01:12 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  12. #20
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    What I simply argued according to holy scripture cannot be called heterodox. You have not given any Biblical support. Do this then, give a couple citations from some Bible scholars.
    If you want me to debate your heterodox ideas, start a thread in a different forum, likely Biblical Languages, or theology.
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

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