Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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First born of all creation?
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"Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostFirstborn, as a position of authority is well attested--I'm not inclined to split semantic hairs with you over this. "ALSO" is grammatically simple; it's inclusive of what I wrote and what others wrote. There's no reason to try and scalpel that out unless you have some heterodox agenda to push.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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There are at least 4 interpretations of the phrase "firstborn of all creation." I have argued one of them. Hank Hanegraaff has presented the other three. What Hank does not present is the view that the term "firstborn" refers to the resurrection of Christ (Colossians 1:18).
http://www.equip.org/perspectives/co...-all-creation/Last edited by 37818; 10-31-2017, 08:12 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat I simply argued according to holy scripture cannot be called heterodox. You have not given any Biblical support. Do this then, give a couple citations from some Bible scholars."Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJustin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostIf you want me to debate your heterodox ideas, start a thread in a different forum, likely Biblical Languages, or theology.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThis has little to with his question, and the part which actually does is wrong. The word does not literally refer to birth order; it literally refers to the status of the firstborn.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe word literally refers to birth order and that the firstborn have special status being firstborn. Hence what happed in Egypt with that original Passover. (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15 as to Christ.)
Here are two words to assist your understanding:
protonotary - a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.
Theotokos - usually translated "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver of God", a term of honor for Mary, the mother of Jesus.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostRepeating the assertion with cites where the word is used does not make it any more correct.
Here are two words to assist your understanding:
protonotary - a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.
Theotokos - usually translated "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver of God", a term of honor for Mary, the mother of Jesus.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNeither of those words are what we are discussing. Prototokos translated firstborn. And the fact that it is used of Christ being the first of the resurrection of the dead (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5; Colossians 1:15, 18).Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI appear to be utterly failing to get my point across. Do you understand that both words I posted contain elements from prototokos? Do you understand why taking the translation literally might therefore be problematic? Your citations are not refuting my explanation in the slightest; that you continue to post them as if they do merely shows your continued misunderstanding.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJustin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
Maybe it doesn't. The word in the Koine texts seems to be active, not passive. Unfortunately, the Theological dictionaries provide the meaning generally ascribed by the churches: non theological dictionaries provide
πρωτότοκ-ος (parox.), Dor. πρᾱτοτόκος , ον , bearing or having borne her first-born , μήτηρ π ., of a heifer, Il. 17.5 ; αἴξ Theoc. 5.27 ; ὗς, ταὧς , Arist. HA 546a12 , 564a30 ; κύων Dsc. 2.70.6 ; of women, Pl. Tht. 151c , 161a ; νύμφη Orph. L. 193 . II proparox. πρωτότοκος, ον , Pass. , first-born , LXX Ge. 22.21 ,al., Ev.Luc. 2.7 , PLips. 28.15 (iv A.D.) , Man. 3.9 ; τὰ π. τῶν προβάτων LXX Ge. 4.4 , cf. PMag. Osl. 1.312 ; π. ἐγὼ ἢ σύ LXX 2 Ki. 19.43 .
2. metaph., π. πάσης κτίσεως Ep.Col. 1.15 ; of Homer, opp. Nicander, AP 9.213.Last edited by tabibito; 10-31-2017, 08:51 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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