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Thread: First born of all creation?

  1. #21
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"
    I can only guess by idiom; the firstborn (male) child was the primary bearer of the line of descent. The literal meaning of the word, as you know, has nothing at all to do with temporality or birth.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  2. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I'm still trying to work out how πρωτοτοκος gets to be "first-born"
    Justin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Justin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
    This has little to with his question, and the part which actually does is wrong. The word does not literally refer to birth order; it literally refers to the status of the firstborn.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  5. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    If you want me to debate your heterodox ideas, start a thread in a different forum, likely Biblical Languages, or theology.
    I started a thread in Unorthodox Theology for this since you are contending my views are heterodox. Please replay to this post only there. Thank you.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    This has little to with his question, and the part which actually does is wrong. The word does not literally refer to birth order; it literally refers to the status of the firstborn.
    The word literally refers to birth order and that the firstborn have special status being firstborn. Hence what happed in Egypt with that original Passover. (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15 as to Christ.)
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  8. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The word literally refers to birth order and that the firstborn have special status being firstborn. Hence what happed in Egypt with that original Passover. (Exodus 4:22-23; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15 as to Christ.)
    Repeating the assertion with cites where the word is used does not make it any more correct.

    Here are two words to assist your understanding:

    protonotary - a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.

    Theotokos - usually translated "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver of God", a term of honor for Mary, the mother of Jesus.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  9. #27
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Repeating the assertion with cites where the word is used does not make it any more correct.

    Here are two words to assist your understanding:

    protonotary - a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.

    Theotokos - usually translated "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver of God", a term of honor for Mary, the mother of Jesus.
    Neither of those words are what we are discussing. Prototokos translated firstborn. And the fact that it is used of Christ being the first of the resurrection of the dead (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5; Colossians 1:15, 18).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #28
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Neither of those words are what we are discussing. Prototokos translated firstborn. And the fact that it is used of Christ being the first of the resurrection of the dead (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5-6; Revelation 1:5; Colossians 1:15, 18).
    I appear to be utterly failing to get my point across. Do you understand that both words I posted contain elements from prototokos? Do you understand why taking the translation literally might therefore be problematic? Your citations are not refuting my explanation in the slightest; that you continue to post them as if they do merely shows your continued misunderstanding.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  11. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  12. #29
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I appear to be utterly failing to get my point across. Do you understand that both words I posted contain elements from prototokos? Do you understand why taking the translation literally might therefore be problematic? Your citations are not refuting my explanation in the slightest; that you continue to post them as if they do merely shows your continued misunderstanding.
    What is my misunderstanding then? I showed the term translated "firstborn" is used to refer to Christ's resurrection in the references cited. The literal use would be Luke 2:7. As a figure or metaphor refers to Christ being the first from the dead. Now you take exception to this. Explain your understanding. The meaning of the word as used in Colossians 1:15 is as stated in verse 18. The linked verses to v.18 in Revelation are 1:5 & 3:14 with the understanding of 21:1.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  13. #30
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Justin Holcomb wrote an article for Christianity.com: What Does It Mean that Jesus Is "The Firstborn from the Dead?"
    From the site you referenced

    The title “firstborn of the dead” for Jesus is of great theological importance, especially with Easter in the background. The Greek word for “firstborn” that John uses is prōtotokos, a word that literally refers to birth order—the first child born.


    Maybe it doesn't. The word in the Koine texts seems to be active, not passive. Unfortunately, the Theological dictionaries provide the meaning generally ascribed by the churches: non theological dictionaries provide

    πρωτότοκ-ος (parox.), Dor. πρᾱτοτόκος , ον , bearing or having borne her first-born , μήτηρ π ., of a heifer, Il. 17.5 ; αἴξ Theoc. 5.27 ; ὗς, ταὧς , Arist. HA 546a12 , 564a30 ; κύων Dsc. 2.70.6 ; of women, Pl. Tht. 151c , 161a ; νύμφη Orph. L. 193 . II proparox. πρωτότοκος, ον , Pass. , first-born , LXX Ge. 22.21 ,al., Ev.Luc. 2.7 , PLips. 28.15 (iv A.D.) , Man. 3.9 ; τὰ π. τῶν προβάτων LXX Ge. 4.4 , cf. PMag. Osl. 1.312 ; π. ἐγὼ ἢ σύ LXX 2 Ki. 19.43 .
    2. metaph., π. πάσης κτίσεως Ep.Col. 1.15 ; of Homer, opp. Nicander, AP 9.213.
    Last edited by tabibito; 11-01-2017 at 01:51 AM.
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