Originally posted by tabibito
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Genesis 2:2 He rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt tends to be only the apologist scholars that accept miracles at face value. Most historians utilise the standard tool of historians, namely the historical-critical method, because in the realm of history there are only judgements of probability, varying from the highest to the lowest degree. Consequently an estimate must be made of the degree of probability attaching to any tradition or historical claim. And, for the likes of Bart Ehrman, the least probable explanations of an alleged event is likely to be a miracle...any natural explanation is more probable.
Predetermining that there was no occurrence of a miracle, however, flies in the face of the principles of scientific enquiry.
Claim: Jesus and Peter walked on water.
Predetermined response: No one can walk on water, therefore, it did not happen.
Scientific enquiry: What would make that possible? Let's investigate.
As far as Bart Ehrman is concerned:
when Mark says that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal was eaten (Mark 14:12; 15:25) and John says he died the day before it was eaten (John 19:14) = maybe that is a genuine difference. {Misquoting Jesus, Harper Collins, 2005, p 10}
Well - he at least got the record of John right, and there are plenty of (more respected) authors who get that bit wrong. But Mark 14:12 shows the day as the one when the Passover is sacrificed, not the first of the Passover Sabbaths (which falls on the following day) Mark 15:25 shows the hour that Jesus was crucified, but not the day. Nothing in the entire paragraph identifies the actual day. However, Mark 15:42 declares the day that Jesus was placed in the tomb as the day of preparation ... So (according to Ehrman's assessment of Mark's record) the dead Jesus was entombed two days before he was crucified.
In sum: Ehrman demonstrates my comment about people who reject any possibility of the miracle accounts being valid, as customarily being unable to validly parse elementary scriptural accounts.Last edited by tabibito; 11-27-2017, 02:04 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI would have to agree that a miracle is the least likely of all possible explanations - that is inextricably a part of and inherent to the definition of a miracle.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI would have to agree that a miracle is the least likely of all possible explanations - that is inextricably a part of and inherent to the definition of a miracle.
Predetermining that there was no occurrence of a miracle, however, flies in the face of the principles of scientific enquiry.Claim: Jesus and Peter walked on water.
Predetermined response: No one can walk on water, therefore, it did not happen.
Scientific enquiry: What would make that possible? Let's investigate.As far as Bart Ehrman is concerned:
when Mark says that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal was eaten (Mark 14:12; 15:25) and John says he died the day before it was eaten (John 19:14) = maybe that is a genuine difference. {Misquoting Jesus, Harper Collins, 2005, p 10}
Well - he at least got the record of John right, and there are plenty of (more respected) authors who get that bit wrong. But Mark 14:12 shows the day as the one when the Passover is sacrificed, not the first of the Passover Sabbaths (which falls on the following day) Mark 15:25 shows the hour that Jesus was crucified, but not the day. Nothing in the entire paragraph identifies the actual day. However, Mark 15:42 declares the day that Jesus was placed in the tomb as the day of preparation ... So (according to Ehrman's assessment of Mark's record) the dead Jesus was entombed two days before he was crucified.
In sum: Ehrman demonstrates my comment about people who reject any possibility of the miracle accounts being valid, as customarily being unable to validly parse elementary scriptural accounts.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHey psstein, only christian biblical scholars believe the bible to be reliable history. Apparently you believe that all biblical scholars are christian. Try Prof. Francesca Stavrakopoulou.
If you're reduced to immolating strawmen, you've lost.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI have no idea where you got the notion that psstein believes that all biblical scholars are christian; you certainly did not get it from the content of his posts. This appears to be an attempt to deflect from the fact that you have no answer to his question.
If you're reduced to immolating strawmen, you've lost.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI've already answered his question twice, Prof. Francesca Stavrakopoulou is right in the post of mine you're responding to.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHey psstein, only christian biblical scholars believe the bible to be reliable history. Apparently you believe that all biblical scholars are christian. Try Prof. Francesca Stavrakopoulou.
I don't think the entirety of the Bible is reliable history in terms of being a blow by blow, accurate account of all that happened. Nobody really believes that outside of extreme fundamentalists.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt tends to be only the apologist scholars that accept miracles at face value. Most historians utilise the standard tool of historians, namely the historical-critical method, because in the realm of history there are only judgements of probability, varying from the highest to the lowest degree. Consequently an estimate must be made of the degree of probability attaching to any tradition or historical claim. And, for the likes of Bart Ehrman, the least probable explanations of an alleged event is likely to be a miracle...any natural explanation is more probable.
In terms of history as probability, that is more or less correct, though there are quite a few who doubt the usefulness of that method.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI have no idea where you got the notion that psstein believes that all biblical scholars are christian; you certainly did not get it from the content of his posts. This appears to be an attempt to deflect from the fact that you have no answer to his question.
If you're reduced to immolating strawmen, you've lost.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSome of Matthew's record can logically be considered myth or hyperbole to be sure, but given that I have yet to find one scholar who disallows all miracle accounts and hasn't also given a mistaken exposition of one elementary statement of scripture or another, I consider such scholars to be somewhat unreliable.
In terms of the nature miracles and the like, that's a different story.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostSeeing as how I actually am a historian, I can tell you that this is not universally true. There are some highly respected historians who believe that one cannot adjudicate positively or negatively on whether or not a miracle occurred, only that it was reported. This is the view that I follow as well.In terms of history as probability, that is more or less correct, though there are quite a few who doubt the usefulness of that method.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostTo reiterate, I certainly don't believe that all Biblical scholars are Christian, seeing as how I came very close to a career in NT (I gave up on it for a number of reasons, one of which is that the field is an absolute disaster as it currently stands).1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
With Biblical studies more generally, the issue is that, while OT has really shifted towards questions of history and archaeology, NT has developed in a way where Jesus and Paul can be reinterpreted to fit any theological scheme you like. Recently, there was an article in a good journal (don't remember which one) about reading John's Jesus as a "queer black woman." I have my own qualms with conservative evangelical scholarship, but conservative evangelicals represent a good portion of NT scholars asking even remotely interesting questions.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt does, in fact. Science tells us that Adam and Eve are fictions; the considerable evidence renders this beyond doubt. That Paul or Jesus thought otherwise is irrelevant. They were wrong. This is not to say that they were stupid or careless. Two thousand years ago, for a Jew to believe in Adam and Eve made sense. But time moves on and our knowledge grows and our understanding of the world evolves.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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