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Thread: Morality or Obedience?

  1. #181
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    God doesn’t exist.
    . . . . that's your claim. You have an argument for that?

    I would suggest that it is based upon the moral values held by the society in which you live.
    I might too, if I didn't affirm God's existence.
    Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
    George Horne

  2. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  3. #182
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    I keep thinking this thread is "Mortality or Obesity"




    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  4. #183
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbballman31 View Post
    . . . . that's your claim. You have an argument for that?
    Lack of substantive evidence is the basis of my claim.

    I might too, if I didn't affirm God's existence.
    Do you have substantive evidence for affirming God's existence?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #184
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbballman31 View Post
    . . . . that's your claim. You have an argument for that?

    I might too, if I didn't affirm God's existence.
    . . . that's your claim. You have an argument for that?
    Mountain Man:
    "...because the notion of "white privilege" is nothing more than a re-branding of failed Marxist ideologies. "

  6. #185
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Many theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
    That is asking a question that is, essentially, meaningless, since the notion that God could not exist is, from a Christian POV, unmeaning.

    IMHO, to apply talk of objectivity-subjectivity to Christian moral living is to apply woefully insufficient, and overly intellectualist, categories. Such an approach is too cerebral and detached and clinical. I think it makes far less inadequate sense to talk of life in Christ as communion with Christ, and as dynamic participation in His Life, and to think of Christian moral living as a natural by-product of Life in Him. The emphasis is not on law or obligation, but on what “happens naturally”, or spontaneously, when a soul is united with Christ.

    Speaking for myself, I think any source whatever is worthwhile as a source of moral teaching. I think that, in principle, any POV can illuminate, and be illuminated by, Christian ethics as interpreted by the Church. If anyone accepts anything good or true, it is a gift of God, regardless of its human historical source. I would apply this idea as much to Nietszche or Schopenhauer or Kant or Heidegger, as to Egyptian & Babylonian wisdom-literature, Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, the Buddha, the Koran, or Ramanuja. The Bible has pride of place as a moral teacher, but it is not the only one; and some things are said better outside it than are said in it. It is not the Bible that is special, so much as the God to Whom the Bible bears witness.

    Sometimes, in order to be Christian, one has to go against the letter of the Bible. Case in point: the abolition of slavery. The Bible allows it. That it is no longer tolerated among Christians, is due, not to the letter of the Bible, but to the logic of faith in Christ, and to an increase in humane sentiment. It is this humane sentiment that brought an end to many conditions and features of life that had previously been widespread or even normal, such as torture, imprisonment for debt, cruelty to children, cruelty to animals, public executions, flogging in Army and Navy, the employment of young children in coalmines, and so on.

  7. #186
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    God doesn’t exist . . .
    Your concept of God, there can be no such thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Lack of substantive evidence is the basis of my claim.
    Last edited by 37818; 01-10-2018 at 02:31 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  8. #187
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Your concept of God, there can be no such thing.
    There is no substantive evidence for any concept of God.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  9. #188
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    God doesn’t exist and yet you do exist so your morality, whilst attributed by you to “God”, is in fact based upon a different source. I would suggest that it is based upon the moral values held by the society in which you live.
    Whoa, there cowboy. Uh, oh. You made a claim; looks like you have the burden of proof. Prove God doesn't exist! If you don't want to, retract your claim, and deal with my counterpossible. Oh, and moral values based on societal norms leads to absurdity.
    Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
    George Horne

  10. #189
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbballman31 View Post
    Whoa, there cowboy. Uh, oh. You made a claim; looks like you have the burden of proof. Prove God doesn't exist! If you don't want to, retract your claim, and deal with my counterpossible. .
    Human history is replete with animistic spirits, totems and gods. There is no good reason to think any of them to have existed or exist. Why would I believe any of them?

    Oh, and moral values based on societal norms leads to absurdity
    Your bald assertion doesn't explain why the societies in which faith and religious observances are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to rank higher on the UN Human Development Index than their more religious rivals.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  11. #190
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Human history is replete with animistic spirits, totems and gods. There is no good reason to think any of them to have existed or exist. Why would I believe any of them?
    What a hypocrite. You fault me for bald assertions below and you have no qualms making one yourself! Typical. You're retracting the claim, then? Don't like that burden of proof do you?

    Your bald assertion doesn't explain why the societies in which faith and religious observances are the weakest — the most secular societies — tend to rank higher on the UN Human Development Index than their more religious rivals.
    It doesn't have to because it's one, gigantic, stinky red herring. Go take your stinky fish home to your stinky abode.
    Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
    George Horne

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