Many theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Morality or Obedience?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostMany theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostMany theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
I have a lot of trouble answering questions like "Would you still live morally if God didn't exist?" because I can't imagine what this world would be like if we were governed by pure, animalistic instincts, which would certainly be the case if atheism were true, so that question is uninteresting to me. I'm much more interested in the question "Why shouldn't we live however we pleased if it were proved that God didn't exist?" Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton, who accumulated so much money and power that they were, at least for a time, effectively above the law (in the case of Hillary, it's very likely that she will die without ever being held accountable by human courts).Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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I'm not sure I understand why proper behavior isn't both morality and obedience. The given position of the Euthyphro isn't that obedience is bad per se, only that religious people who claim to know what they're talking about might not have thought about it deeply."Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIn other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View Post... In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
If you want to engage in a sensible discussion on these matters with Christians, you need to ask you your questions in a different way that we can actually imagine.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWe are moral beings in so far as God has given us a conscience to make us inherently aware of right and wrong.
I have a lot of trouble answering questions like "Would you still live morally if God didn't exist?" because I can't imagine what this world would be like if we were governed by pure, animalistic instincts, which would certainly be the case if atheism were true, so that question is uninteresting to me. I'm much more interested in the question "Why shouldn't we live however we pleased if it were proved that God didn't exist?" Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton, who accumulated so much money and power that they were, at least for a time, effectively above the law (in the case of Hillary, it's very likely that she will die without ever being held accountable by human courts).
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostI'm not sure I understand why proper behavior isn't both morality and obedience. The given position of the Euthyphro isn't that obedience is bad per se, only that religious people who claim to know what they're talking about might not have thought about it deeply.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostOkay, so lets say that you have those same qualities that you believe god to have given you, i.e. a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, but you also know that there is no god. What do you do? Do you follow your conscience, or do you say, hmmm, I have nothing to fear, I'll just do what ever is in my own personal interests, to hell with right and wrong.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou don't get it. If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostHmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostOf course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton
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