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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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Morality or Obedience?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Jesus paid it all, so what do I have to fear? I want to be good because God is good and has done much for me. So, love/gratitude/loyalty, not fear. Having a healthy respect of God means one does not have to be pants wetting terrified of Him. Now, if Jesus/an angel/theophany showed up to some poor human, the human would be terrified, but only because their limbic system activated. Humans are skittish little mammals.
    So for you, the reason to do what is morally good is out of thanks, because God has done right for you?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      As Charles Babbage famously said, "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
      Hmm, more likely "you are rightly not able, or unwilling to answer, so pretend not to be able to apprehend.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        It could be both, but thats not the question.
        Sure. The best solution to the dilemma is God as prime moral agent and moral exemplar— something g which couldn’t be said of various gods from certain mythologies. God as both prime moral agent and moral exemplar says, “I have created the universe according to certain moral rules— not let me show you best how to be good.” We are “good” by being obedient and the obedient are “good.” The idea of “merely obedient” therefore means to be a full moral agent making the best moral choices and understanding why those are the best moral choices.

        Fwiw,
        Guac
        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
        Save me, save me"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
          Hmm, more likely "you are rightly not able, or unwilling to answer, so pretend not to be able to apprehend.
          Not at all. The fact that you would even ask such a question simply shows that you've not even begun to understand my position. Assuming that God doesn't exist but all other things are equal (which I consider to be a preposterous supposition anyway, but that's another matter), whether or not I would continue to act in a way that we consider to be moral is entirely irrelevant, and if you attempted to work you way through the very thorny issue I presented earlier then maybe you'll get it, but I doubt it.

          So here it is: If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Why not?
            Because I like chasing women and smoking weed and selling weed and watching porn. And I don't do those things (among others) anymore based solely on religious beliefs.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Because I like chasing women and smoking weed and selling weed and watching porn. And I don't do those things (among others) anymore based solely on religious beliefs.
              Indeed. I'm a better person because of my religion.

              Someone might scoff and say, "You don't seem like that great of a person to me!" to which I would respond, "Perhaps not, but without religion, I would be even worse."
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Indeed. I'm a better person because of my religion.

                Someone might scoff and say, "You don't seem like that great of a person to me!" to which I would respond, "Perhaps not, but without religion, I would be even worse."
                To paraphrase CS Lewis, it is not so much what the man is with Christ, but what he would be without Christ.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Because I like chasing women and smoking weed and selling weed and watching porn. And I don't do those things (among others) anymore based solely on religious beliefs.
                  Would you rape women, would you sell drugs to children, would you rob, or murder and rob, every penny from an elderly widow? What do you think?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Would you rape women, would you sell drugs to children, would you rob, or murder and rob, every penny from an elderly widow? What do you think?
                    Jim, there are a lot of things I did do that I won't do now because of my faith. That is a fact, and I'm not going to lay out all my past sins, it is enough to say that many were criminal in nature.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Jim, there are a lot of things I did do that I won't do now because of my faith. That is a fact, and I'm not going to lay out all my past sins, it is enough to say that many were criminal in nature.
                      Glad you got saved. I sure don't have an interesting Saul-Paul transformation style conversion. I was a mere child, so my morality is heavily influenced by Christian morality. I can't know what I'd be like without Jesus, because I have been a Christian for most of my life. My brain was still developing, so I don't know how that affects things.
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Jim, there are a lot of things I did do that I won't do now because of my faith. That is a fact, and I'm not going to lay out all my past sins, it is enough to say that many were criminal in nature.
                        I wasn't asking you to lay out all, or any, of your past sins seer, I was asking if you would do those particular things that I asked you of in the above post now, if you knew there was no god? The reason I asked is because the sins that you mentioned that you no longer do were rather mild in nature and having not much, if any effect, on anyone but yourself. So you don't need to tell me what you did in the past, prior to your conversion, I'm only asking you if, knowing there is no god, would you do those particular things I ask you of today.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Glad you got saved. I sure don't have an interesting Saul-Paul transformation style conversion. I was a mere child, so my morality is heavily influenced by Christian morality. I can't know what I'd be like without Jesus, because I have been a Christian for most of my life. My brain was still developing, so I don't know how that affects things.
                          You sound a bit like a friend of mine who grew up in a good Christian home and was saved as a youngster. Though he had done nothing terrible himself, the thing that God used to get his attention was the realization that he was capable of doing the worst things than any person on earth had ever done (murder, etc.). As an unbeliever, he realized that his heart was fundamentally no different from theirs.
                          "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            Glad you got saved. I sure don't have an interesting Saul-Paul transformation style conversion. I was a mere child, so my morality is heavily influenced by Christian morality. I can't know what I'd be like without Jesus, because I have been a Christian for most of my life. My brain was still developing, so I don't know how that affects things.
                            I did have a rather powerful conversion, but I was raised in a largely Catholic culture, neighborhood. But I was consciously agnostic by my early teens and I just look at man's laws and religion as things that got in the way of what I wanted.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              I wasn't asking you to lay out all, or any, of your past sins seer, I was asking if you would do those particular things that I asked you of in the above post now, if you knew there was no god? The reason I asked is because the sins that you mentioned that you no longer do were rather mild in nature and having not much, if any effect, on anyone but yourself. So you don't need to tell me what you did in the past, prior to your conversion, I'm only asking you if, knowing there is no god, would you do those particular things I ask you of today.
                              Yes Jim, there are a number of things I would do to make money that would not be lawful. Let me give you an example. I knew a older fellow back in the 80s (he is long dead) who used to fence high end stolen products. He was never violent, that I knew of, he used his profits to send his three kids to very good colleges, they all did well in life. He was never arrested, was a loving father and husband - when he died he left his family a nice chunk of change and prime Connecticut property. Could I do that - yes. I mean as an atheist, what would you tell this man?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                                You sound a bit like a friend of mine who grew up in a good Christian home and was saved as a youngster. Though he had done nothing terrible himself, the thing that God used to get his attention was the realization that he was capable of doing the worst things than any person on earth had ever done (murder, etc.). As an unbeliever, he realized that his heart was fundamentally no different from theirs.
                                I just wanted to have the loyalty that the three young men in the fiery furnace had. And the possible protection from evil men.
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                                Comment

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