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  • Originally posted by element771 View Post
    It was a comet that was actually recorded in ancient Chinese records. It fit all of the details recorded in the birth narrative including the Magi and them setting out to visit Jesus. Interestingly, the Chinese recorded that the comet was signifying that a new king / ruler was being born or something to that effect (I forget the exact wording).

    I think you would like the scientific approach to verifying the historical accuracy.
    The thing is that comets are not all that uncommon. Also they usually signified doom, death, disease and disaster, not the birth of a king. So if comets did contain a message, it would more than likely been seen as a bad omen."

    http://deepimpact.umd.edu/science/comets-cultures.html

    It's probably best to regard the Star of Bethlehem story as yet another example of biblical folk-lore...along with the virgin birth etc.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • Originally posted by element771 View Post
      I think being made in his image is our ability to reason, our urge to create, and our ability to ponder our very existence. I think that this is what separates us from other animals...not a soul.
      I think us having a soul is what enables us to do all of the above.

      To me it seems like physicalism makes a sham out of the resurrection. If you are identical with your body and there's nothing more to you then it seems to me like you dying would be tantamount to being erased from existence, and as such it would be impossible for you to be resurrected. God could make another human being who would be an exact replica of you with all your memories and experiences, but it would still not be the you, just a person who happens to look, speak and act exactly like you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Ah, the Bible, particularly the NT, which is the book we were discussing, is not a book of History, as a story it is set in that historic time, but it isn't history.
        Actually, there is a significant amount of history in the NT as well as the NT. It is not a "history book," but it does provide some history. Indeed, the letters are exactly that - letters from some of the early Christian leaders to their communities. They are as much "history" as the letters left behind by MLK or Abraham Lincoln. The gospels also contain significant, verifiable historical elements - but they are a historical look at what the early Christian community believed when they were written (in the latter half of the first century). Acts is essentially the same. Revelations is pure apocrypha.

        You're making sweeping claim, Jim, that just make it look like you don't actually know a good deal about the bible. Your view of Christianity, to affirm Element's observation, is a little cartoonish. I have the sense you are one of those "angry Atheists." Has Christianity (or some Christian) done something to you to lead you that makes you angry with them?
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          I think us having a soul is what enables us to do all of the above.

          To me it seems like physicalism makes a sham out of the resurrection. If you are identical with your body and there's nothing more to you then it seems to me like you dying would be tantamount to being erased from existence, and as such it would be impossible for you to be resurrected. God could make another human being who would be an exact replica of you with all your memories and experiences, but it would still not be the you, just a person who happens to look, speak and act exactly like you.
          So, in your opinion, if we reach the point where it becomes possible to transfer the entirety of the human mind to an artificial matrix before they die, and can create an android that has the exact memories and thoughts of the person their brain is based on, the resulting "person," even though it has my memories from birth, my opinions, my beliefs, my preferences, etc., would not be me?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            So, in your opinion, if we reach the point where it becomes possible to transfer the entirety of the human mind to an artificial matrix before they die, and can create an android that has the exact memories and thoughts of the person their brain is based on, the resulting "person," even though it has my memories from birth, my opinions, my beliefs, my preferences, etc., would not be me?
            Yes, that is correct. In my view, if physicalism is correct then any destruction of the original "hardware" (i.e the brain) would mean the same as the irreversible destruction of the person.

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            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              Yes, that is correct. In my view, if physicalism is correct then any destruction of the original "hardware" (i.e the brain) would mean the same as the irreversible destruction of the person.
              Oh, the implications. If matter transport is ever possible. The transported entity would not be the one transported at all. Only a likeness thinking it was you.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                Yes, that is correct. In my view, if physicalism is correct then any destruction of the original "hardware" (i.e the brain) would mean the same as the irreversible destruction of the person.
                It's an interesting position. I would say that we ARE our memories and experiences. It is what makes each of us unique - individual. The hardware is relevant, but a person who has lost a leg does not stop being themselves, whereas a person who has suffered dimentia is actually losing themselves. If we do ever find a way to transfer the mind from the "brain" hardware to another brain or an artificial body - I think we will have found the way to transplant the "self" and achieved a form of immortality.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Actually yes you do. You believe in exactly the same version of christianity that I speak of, because if you didn't, you wouldn't believe in the bible.
                  Then you must not understand much of the Bible or my religion.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                    Then you must not understand much of the Bible or my religion.
                    Oh yes, I do. For instance, you believe in astrology, that the Magi could read the sky, that the sky told them that a Jewish king was born, and that a comet led them to what they saw there.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      It's an interesting position. I would say that we ARE our memories and experiences. It is what makes each of us unique - individual. The hardware is relevant, but a person who has lost a leg does not stop being themselves, whereas a person who has suffered dimentia is actually losing themselves. If we do ever find a way to transfer the mind from the "brain" hardware to another brain or an artificial body - I think we will have found the way to transplant the "self" and achieved a form of immortality.
                      I don't think so carpe. The the mind is not a thing that exists separate from the physical brain, the physical brain is the mind.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Oh yes, I do. For instance, you believe in astrology, that the Magi could read the sky, that the sky told them that a Jewish king was born, and that a comet led them to what they saw there.
                        I believe you are an idiot.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                          It's probably best to regard the Star of Bethlehem story as yet another example of biblical folk-lore...along with the virgin birth etc.
                          So you don't read the data, you just jump straight to this. I thought you were supposed to be down with science.

                          What other issues do you ignore the data and just rely on your gut?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            I don't think so carpe. The the mind is not a thing that exists separate from the physical brain, the physical brain is the mind.
                            Umm....no. While the brain is the location of the phenomenon we call “mind,” every indication suggests that the mind is an emergent property of that organ. So they are not, strictly speaking, synonymous. In much the same way, life is an emergent property of the complex arrangement of matter we call our bodies.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              I think us having a soul is what enables us to do all of the above.

                              To me it seems like physicalism makes a sham out of the resurrection. If you are identical with your body and there's nothing more to you then it seems to me like you dying would be tantamount to being erased from existence, and as such it would be impossible for you to be resurrected. God could make another human being who would be an exact replica of you with all your memories and experiences, but it would still not be the you, just a person who happens to look, speak and act exactly like you.
                              I disagree.

                              I don't understand how a soul would interact with something physical such as the brain. It is no more of a stretch than to just have the brain give you these traits.

                              It is weird because I find having a soul cheapens the resurrection. If Jesus' soul was not destroyed by death, how are we now saved? Jesus' destruction had to be complete for the full atonement to take place. IMO

                              Check our Glenn Peoples podcast on the topic, he covers all of this.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                I would say that we ARE our memories and experiences.
                                I could agree to all of this and still hold to the position (were I a physicalist) that destruction of the brain is the same as destruction of the self. In my view transferring the mind from the brain to something else (whatever that something might be) would not be a case of actual transferring, but of copying. And a copy of your mind, no matter how identical, would still not be the same as your mind. You would be creating a distinct individual who would be acting completely independently from the original person.

                                Comment

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