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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Understood. I was mostly just curious.

    And I do find myself fascinated by the attempts to apply scientific analysis to the varous miracle stories of the bible. The association of the Black Sea deluge (circa 5600) with the Noah/flood story, for example.
    Humphreys does this for numerous stories like the parting of the Red Sea, striking the stone to get water, and the ones I mentioned.

    I still haven't forgotten to get that paper for you, I had to go home early today bc of kids.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by element771 View Post
      You keep using this phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
      Argument from Ignorance: Description: The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Confusing ignorance with impossibility (or possibility) is fallacious.

      https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...from-Ignorance

      Hence, to argue that “the brain is unable to account for qualia or that neuroscience won't ever solve the problem” is an argument from ignorance, as I said. .
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        How on earth do you know that chimps experience qualia - did they tell you?
        Seer's usual argument via mockery, how insecure your beliefs. No they didn’t tell me, we know this via the observation by primatologists of their behaviour and their interrelation among each other.

        http://www.evolbiol.ru/docs/docs/lar...p.pdf#page=268
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          I have no problem with some animals having experiences with qualia-like properties and by extension some sort of lower-level "soul". However, I reject the notion that we'll ever create such complex/advanced AI entities that they'll eventually acquire qualia-like experiences. Mainly because I don't believe having these subjective experiences has anything to do with how complex/advanced your brain is.
          Why do you assume the existence of a ‘soul’ at all...let alone a “lower-level soul”?

          I'm sure you know something I don't. We wouldn't wanna make an argument from ignorance when we just accused the other guy of doing the very same thing, now would we?
          Fair point!

          Nevertheless, ASFAIK, there is no substantive evidence of immaterial entities of any sort, let alone how they could connect with material entities.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Seer's usual argument via mockery, how insecure your beliefs. No they didn’t tell me, we know this via the observation by primatologists of their behaviour and their interrelation among each other.

            http://www.evolbiol.ru/docs/docs/lar...p.pdf#page=268
            That is just stupid Tass, qualia is completely subjective and personal, it can not be known except by the subject. You can observe behavior but you can not know what their subjective experience is like. Heck you can not even know what my experience is like. When we both smell a flower do we have the same reaction? It is pleasant for me, the way it is for you? Or not pleasant at all? The only way you can know is if I tell you.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • https://what-if.xkcd.com/25/
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                That is just stupid Tass, qualia is completely subjective and personal, it can not be known except by the subject. You can observe behavior but you can not know what their subjective experience is like. Heck you can not even know what my experience is like. When we both smell a flower do we have the same reaction? It is pleasant for me, the way it is for you? Or not pleasant at all? The only way you can know is if I tell you.
                I am new to the term - but from what little I have read - this is spot-on.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Argument from Ignorance: Description: The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary. Confusing ignorance with impossibility (or possibility) is fallacious.

                  https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...from-Ignorance

                  Hence, to argue that “the brain is unable to account for qualia or that neuroscience won't ever solve the problem” is an argument from ignorance, as I said. .
                  You are actually leaping two claims here.

                  Your argument from ignorance may apply to quaila but that doesn't have anything to do with the soul.

                  Can you lay out the argument and show why it is an argument from ignorance? That way I can understand where you are coming from.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I am new to the term - but from what little I have read - this is spot-on.
                    Right, but somehow we can know what monkeys experience internally.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Right, but somehow we can know what monkeys experience internally.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        That is what Tass was claiming, that we can know what monkeys experience.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I think what seer is saying is that the only way we could establish the monkeys experience qualia is if they could tell us that they do. However, Tass seems to assume that monkeys experience qualia as a brute fact. Unless he can talk to monkeys, he has no way of knowing this.

                          This is similar to the Hard Problem of Consciousness if I am not mistaken.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                            I think what seer is saying is that the only way we could establish the monkeys experience qualia is if they could tell us that they do. However, Tass seems to assume that monkeys experience qualia as a brute fact. Unless he can talk to monkeys, he has no way of knowing this.

                            This is similar to the Hard Problem of Consciousness if I am not mistaken.
                            Right, not only that, I could not even be sure that you experience things the way I do.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                              I think what seer is saying is that the only way we could establish the monkeys experience qualia is if they could tell us that they do. However, Tass seems to assume that monkeys experience qualia as a brute fact. Unless he can talk to monkeys, he has no way of knowing this.

                              This is similar to the Hard Problem of Consciousness if I am not mistaken.
                              It is - and I agree that we cannot know the qualia experience of another person, let alone another species. Tass may be confusing "qualia" with "cognition" and the ability to reason and be self-aware.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                It is - and I agree that we cannot know the qualia experience of another person, let alone another species. Tass may be confusing "qualia" with "cognition" and the ability to reason and be self-aware.
                                Yes, Tass confuses a lot of things. A few species of animals do seem to pass the mirror test suggesting self-awareness.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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