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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Not monkeys, chimpanzees! And that's not the view of primatologists such as Jane Goodall and Frans de Waal et al, i.e. people that are in a better position than you to know.
    Again, they are still attempting to read subjective motive and feelings into behavior. Not provable assumptions.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Again, they are still attempting to read subjective motive and feelings into behavior. Not provable assumptions.
      If one observes consistent behaviour that conforms to one's expectations and personal experience of altruism, empathy, and gratitude among fellow humans or chimpanzees it is reasonable to assume that they are actually experiencing these emotions. Experienced Primatologists do, why wouldn’t you? Are you trying to imply that humans are unique?
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        If one observes consistent behaviour that conforms to one's expectations and personal experience of altruism, empathy, and gratitude among fellow humans or chimpanzees it is reasonable to assume that they are actually experiencing these emotions. Experienced Primatologists do, why wouldn’t you? Are you trying to imply that humans are unique?
        I've been watching this back and forth for a while, and I think you two are talking past each other. You (Tass) are speaking about "reasonable assumptions" and Seer is speaking about "absolute proofs." I think you need to remember that he is a theist, and they are somewhat prone to binary thinking. So he is correct in his (somewhat extreme) statement: you have no way of "absolutely proving" that a primate "subjectively experiences X." They could be fooling you. They could be mimicking. There are a dozen possibilities that COULD explain the behavior without resorting to "they experience X human trait."

        In other words, he is speaking in absolutes (e.g., prove it without possibility of error, like a mathematical proof) and you are speaking probabilities/plausibilities (e.g., the behavior strongly indicates X, which most likely means Y). From my perspective, that makes you both right. Qualia is an internal experience. It may be possible to prove someone (or something) experiences qualia, but it is not possible to know the experience as if it were you own. The best we can do is observe behavior, compare it to our own and what drives us, and infer that the same thing is most likely happening for that other being. It is a reasonable assumption, it is plausible, it is just not provable in the same way that someone can prove that the angles of a triangle always sum to 180 degrees.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          he is a theist, and they are somewhat prone to binary thinking

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            Well - not ALL thesists - and not ALL the time - but there is a tendency in that direction I have noticed (hence the term "prone"). A thing is "true" or it is "false," no in between. I've even seen the the law of noncontradiction reduced to "a statement cannot be true and untrue" excluding the "in the same way and at the same time" part. And if I point out the second part, I become a "post-modern hypocrite with relativist leanings."

            It happens a lot...
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Well - not ALL thesists - and not ALL the time - but there is a tendency in that direction I have noticed (hence the term "prone"). A thing is "true" or it is "false," no in between. I've even seen the the law of noncontradiction reduced to "a statement cannot be true and untrue" excluding the "in the same way and at the same time" part. And if I point out the second part, I become a "post-modern hypocrite with relativist leanings."

              It happens a lot...
              I don't believe binary thinking is any more prevalent among theists than it is non-theists. I believe being prone to binary thinking is something that's true for humans in general (and it's not necessarily a bad thing) and has nothing to do with being a theist or not. If it seems like theists are more prone to it than non-theists(and notice I'm not saying non-religious) it's probably because we theists are of a overwhelmingly greater number than non-theists. Any statement to the effect that "theists are more/less prone to X than non-theists" where X stands for anything that isn't tautologically true of theists but not non-theists is most likely going to be insupportable, without any reliable statistic to back it up. It's the same with any statistic that show e.g. that "theists tend to have a lower grade of education than non-theists" and then someone comes around interpreting it to mean that somehow the fact that you're a theist is somehow the very reason why you only have a lower degree of education, or vice versa. But in reality it's simply the fact that "being prone to binary thinking", or "having a fairly low degree of education" is generally true of humans in general and the reason why it might seem more prevalent among theists is simply because the amount of theists is so massively larger than non-theists that any tendency among humans in general is going to be much more pronounced among theist than among non-theists.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I've been watching this back and forth for a while, and I think you two are talking past each other. You (Tass) are speaking about "reasonable assumptions" and Seer is speaking about "absolute proofs." I think you need to remember that he is a theist, and they are somewhat prone to binary thinking. So he is correct in his (somewhat extreme) statement: you have no way of "absolutely proving" that a primate "subjectively experiences X."
                Yes, I am “speaking about reasonable assumptions”, not absolute proofs. I thought I made that clear. That’s all one can expect when communicating with others or when observing the behaviour of our higher simian relatives.

                They could be fooling you. They could be mimicking. There are a dozen possibilities that COULD explain the behavior without resorting to "they experience X human trait."
                Indeed! So could our fellow humans be mimicking, sometimes without realising it, especially the deluded or psychopathic among us.

                In other words, he is speaking in absolutes (e.g., prove it without possibility of error, like a mathematical proof) and you are speaking probabilities/plausibilities (e.g., the behavior strongly indicates X, which most likely means Y). From my perspective, that makes you both right.
                Seer always speaks in “absolutes” as you yourself (and I) have critically observed several times before.

                Qualia is an internal experience. It may be possible to prove someone (or something) experiences qualia, but it is not possible to know the experience as if it were you own. The best we can do is observe behavior, compare it to our own and what drives us, and infer that the same thing is most likely happening for that other being. It is a reasonable assumption, it is plausible, it is just not provable in the same way that someone can prove that the angles of a triangle always sum to 180 degrees.
                Yes, I agree. I have said exactly this throughout the thread, as recently as in my most recent post #857 above.
                Last edited by Tassman; 04-09-2018, 12:41 AM.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  I don't believe binary thinking is any more prevalent among theists than it is non-theists. I believe being prone to binary thinking is something that's true for humans in general (and it's not necessarily a bad thing) and has nothing to do with being a theist or not. If it seems like theists are more prone to it than non-theists(and notice I'm not saying non-religious) it's probably because we theists are of a overwhelmingly greater number than non-theists. Any statement to the effect that "theists are more/less prone to X than non-theists" where X stands for anything that isn't tautologically true of theists but not non-theists is most likely going to be insupportable, without any reliable statistic to back it up. It's the same with any statistic that show e.g. that "theists tend to have a lower grade of education than non-theists" and then someone comes around interpreting it to mean that somehow the fact that you're a theist is somehow the very reason why you only have a lower degree of education, or vice versa. But in reality it's simply the fact that "being prone to binary thinking", or "having a fairly low degree of education" is generally true of humans in general and the reason why it might seem more prevalent among theists is simply because the amount of theists is so massively larger than non-theists that any tendency among humans in general is going to be much more pronounced among theist than among non-theists.
                  First, what I was relating is my experience, so I'm not making a statistical claim. That being said, I did over-state even that. As I reflect on it, my experience is not simply theist vs. non-theist; it is more a function of conservative theism. My wife is theist and is not prone to binary thinking. The same is true of many of my friends. Indeed, as I write this, I am realizing that what I am associating with conservative theism may be more a function of the "conservative" part than the "theisism" part. I have no way to separate the two in my experience because my conservative friends tend to be theistic and my non-theistic friends tend to be moderate/liberal.

                  Thanks for making me reflect on that a bit more. I was making associations I cannot justify.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Yes, I am “speaking about reasonable assumptions”, not absolute proofs. I thought I made that clear. That’s all one can expect when communicating with others or when observing the behaviour of our higher simian relatives.

                    Indeed! So could our fellow humans be mimicking, sometimes without realising it, especially the deluded or psychopathic among us.

                    Seer always speaks in “absolutes” as you yourself (and I) have critically observed several times before.
                    My radar usually goes off when someone speaks in superlatives. Seer does speak in absolutes a fair amount. I'm not sure I can say, "always."

                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Yes, I agree. I have said exactly this throughout the thread, as recently as in my most recent post #857 above.
                    Yeah - I know. Just thought I'd stick my nose in with an outside perspective.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      My radar usually goes off when someone speaks in superlatives. Seer does speak in absolutes a fair amount. I'm not sure I can say, "always."


                      Yeah - I know. Just thought I'd stick my nose in with an outside perspective.
                      Well it's always nice to have a fresh voice on board during a seer exchange.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        I don't believe binary thinking is any more prevalent among theists than it is non-theists. I believe being prone to binary thinking is something that's true for humans in general (and it's not necessarily a bad thing) and has nothing to do with being a theist or not. If it seems like theists are more prone to it than non-theists(and notice I'm not saying non-religious) it's probably because we theists are of a overwhelmingly greater number than non-theists. Any statement to the effect that "theists are more/less prone to X than non-theists" where X stands for anything that isn't tautologically true of theists but not non-theists is most likely going to be insupportable, without any reliable statistic to back it up. It's the same with any statistic that show e.g. that "theists tend to have a lower grade of education than non-theists" and then someone comes around interpreting it to mean that somehow the fact that you're a theist is somehow the very reason why you only have a lower degree of education, or vice versa. But in reality it's simply the fact that "being prone to binary thinking", or "having a fairly low degree of education" is generally true of humans in general and the reason why it might seem more prevalent among theists is simply because the amount of theists is so massively larger than non-theists that any tendency among humans in general is going to be much more pronounced among theist than among non-theists.
                        Binary classically simply believing or thinking that their are only two possible options. Sort of, "My way or the highway." Extreme religious views whether belief or non-belief are classic examples. Which dominate our world at present including politics in America.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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