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Morality or Obedience?

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  • Morality or Obedience?

    Many theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?

  • #2
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Many theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
    I think they've got it back-to-front. Our primitive ancestors, including other human species such as Neanderthals, all had communal rules of behaviour (which is all morality is) according to archaeological evidence. This behaviour developed before gods, as we understand gods to be today, evolved.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • #3
      No, we believe God built in a sense of morals into us based on his ideas of good and bad. They are intrinsic to our nature. We call it a "conscience"

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      • #4
        Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
        Many theists here argue that morality is objective, that god is the bases of morality. So my question to them, i.e. to you theists, do you consider yourself to be moral beings, or are you just obeying what you believe to be devine laws? In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
        We are moral beings in so far as God has given us a conscience to make us inherently aware of right and wrong.

        I have a lot of trouble answering questions like "Would you still live morally if God didn't exist?" because I can't imagine what this world would be like if we were governed by pure, animalistic instincts, which would certainly be the case if atheism were true, so that question is uninteresting to me. I'm much more interested in the question "Why shouldn't we live however we pleased if it were proved that God didn't exist?" Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton, who accumulated so much money and power that they were, at least for a time, effectively above the law (in the case of Hillary, it's very likely that she will die without ever being held accountable by human courts).
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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        • #5
          I'm not sure I understand why proper behavior isn't both morality and obedience. The given position of the Euthyphro isn't that obedience is bad per se, only that religious people who claim to know what they're talking about might not have thought about it deeply.
          "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
          Hear my cry, hear my shout,
          Save me, save me"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
            I would not live by all the morals I do today, most perhaps...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              ... In other words, if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?
              FYI, for a Christian, this is a nonsensical hypothetical situation. It's like asking, "if the carbon atom didn't exist, how would you think or act differently?" Or, "if the electromagnetic force didn't exist, how would you think or act differently?" If any of these (God, carbon atoms, electromagnetic force) didn't exist, then we wouldn't exist, either.

              If you want to engage in a sensible discussion on these matters with Christians, you need to ask you your questions in a different way that we can actually imagine.
              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                I would not live by all the morals I do today, most perhaps...
                Why not?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  We are moral beings in so far as God has given us a conscience to make us inherently aware of right and wrong.

                  I have a lot of trouble answering questions like "Would you still live morally if God didn't exist?" because I can't imagine what this world would be like if we were governed by pure, animalistic instincts, which would certainly be the case if atheism were true, so that question is uninteresting to me. I'm much more interested in the question "Why shouldn't we live however we pleased if it were proved that God didn't exist?" Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton, who accumulated so much money and power that they were, at least for a time, effectively above the law (in the case of Hillary, it's very likely that she will die without ever being held accountable by human courts).
                  Okay, so lets say that you have those same qualities that you believe god to have given you, i.e. a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, but you also know that there is no god. What do you do? Do you follow your conscience, or do you say, hmmm, I have nothing to fear, I'll just do what ever is in my own personal interests, to hell with right and wrong.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                    I'm not sure I understand why proper behavior isn't both morality and obedience. The given position of the Euthyphro isn't that obedience is bad per se, only that religious people who claim to know what they're talking about might not have thought about it deeply.
                    It could be both, but thats not the question.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                      Okay, so lets say that you have those same qualities that you believe god to have given you, i.e. a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, but you also know that there is no god. What do you do? Do you follow your conscience, or do you say, hmmm, I have nothing to fear, I'll just do what ever is in my own personal interests, to hell with right and wrong.
                      You don't get it. If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        You don't get it. If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?
                        Hmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Hmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?
                          Jesus paid it all, so what do I have to fear? I want to be good because God is good and has done much for me. So, love/gratitude/loyalty, not fear. Having a healthy respect of God means one does not have to be pants wetting terrified of Him. Now, if Jesus/an angel/theophany showed up to some poor human, the human would be terrified, but only because their limbic system activated. Humans are skittish little mammals.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                            Hmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?
                            As Charles Babbage famously said, "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton
                              But it does answer the question -- unless you're claiming that those Christian virtues are rationally indefensible. Is that a position you really want to defend?

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