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Thread: Morality or Obedience?

  1. #11
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    Okay, so lets say that you have those same qualities that you believe god to have given you, i.e. a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, but you also know that there is no god. What do you do? Do you follow your conscience, or do you say, hmmm, I have nothing to fear, I'll just do what ever is in my own personal interests, to hell with right and wrong.
    You don't get it. If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You don't get it. If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?
    Hmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?

  3. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Hmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?
    Jesus paid it all, so what do I have to fear? I want to be good because God is good and has done much for me. So, love/gratitude/loyalty, not fear. Having a healthy respect of God means one does not have to be pants wetting terrified of Him. Now, if Jesus/an angel/theophany showed up to some poor human, the human would be terrified, but only because their limbic system activated. Humans are skittish little mammals.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  5. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  6. #14
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    Hmm, interesting, so you'd say that christians aren't moral beings in their own right, but that they're obedient beings in fear of their master?
    As Charles Babbage famously said, "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  7. Amen Jedidiah, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  8. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton
    But it does answer the question -- unless you're claiming that those Christian virtues are rationally indefensible. Is that a position you really want to defend?

  9. #16
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Jesus paid it all, so what do I have to fear? I want to be good because God is good and has done much for me. So, love/gratitude/loyalty, not fear. Having a healthy respect of God means one does not have to be pants wetting terrified of Him. Now, if Jesus/an angel/theophany showed up to some poor human, the human would be terrified, but only because their limbic system activated. Humans are skittish little mammals.
    So for you, the reason to do what is morally good is out of thanks, because God has done right for you?

  10. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    As Charles Babbage famously said, "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
    Hmm, more likely "you are rightly not able, or unwilling to answer, so pretend not to be able to apprehend.

  11. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  12. #18
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    It could be both, but thats not the question.
    Sure. The best solution to the dilemma is God as prime moral agent and moral exemplar— something g which couldn’t be said of various gods from certain mythologies. God as both prime moral agent and moral exemplar says, “I have created the universe according to certain moral rules— not let me show you best how to be good.” We are “good” by being obedient and the obedient are “good.” The idea of “merely obedient” therefore means to be a full moral agent making the best moral choices and understanding why those are the best moral choices.

    Fwiw,
    Guac
    "Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the
    thankless sea?"

  13. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  14. #19
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    Hmm, more likely "you are rightly not able, or unwilling to answer, so pretend not to be able to apprehend.
    Not at all. The fact that you would even ask such a question simply shows that you've not even begun to understand my position. Assuming that God doesn't exist but all other things are equal (which I consider to be a preposterous supposition anyway, but that's another matter), whether or not I would continue to act in a way that we consider to be moral is entirely irrelevant, and if you attempted to work you way through the very thorny issue I presented earlier then maybe you'll get it, but I doubt it.

    So here it is: If God doesn't exist then why should I give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about my conscience? It's just neurons firing in my brain, nothing more than a natural process like gravity or entropy, so why assign it any special significance? Why shouldn't I strive to be like a Hillary Clinton and acquire enough power and money until I could literally get away with murder?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  15. #20
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Why not?
    Because I like chasing women and smoking weed and selling weed and watching porn. And I don't do those things (among others) anymore based solely on religious beliefs.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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