Originally posted by JimL
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Morality or Obedience?
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post...which translates to "your subjective moral code is not objective, ergo it is bad." The first half is true by definition. The second half is an assumption unsupported by the first half.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell yes, in your world Carp there are no objectively true moral answers.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe universe is ultimately unjust
Originally posted by seer View Postand all our moral musings are ultimately fruitless.
Are you seeing the problem yet, Seer? You're still not making an argument - you're repeating a definition and declaring "bad" by fiat.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs far as I know, the universe is not sentient. Since justice is a categorization of sentient minds about sentient actions, the term "justice" does not seem to apply to the universe as a whole.
Are you seeing the problem yet, Seer? You're still not making an argument - you're repeating a definition and declaring "bad" by fiat.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIf there is a God, we live in a just universe."Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Originally posted by seer View PostIf there is a God, we live in a just universe.
Originally posted by seer View PostOf course I'm making an argument, if you are correct certain things logically follow. Starlight, for instance, makes an argument for infanticide, and who are you to say that he is wrong?
As for who am I to say he is wrong, I will say he is wrong if his moral code does not align with mine. He will do the same in reverse. I do have several avenues available to me for attempting to bring parity between us. If Starlight values the same things that I do (life, liberty, health, happiness, etc.), then I can try to show him how his reasoning from what he values to his moral conclusion is logically flawed. If he does not, then I would need to find a way to convince him to value those things. If neither of those approaches achieves parity (it may well be we will NOT agree on what is moral - that is normal for a subjective/relative moral framework), then we will fall back to the remaining options: isolate/separate, or contend - depending on the context.
We've been through this before - several times. You just keep ignoring the responses because they don't align with how you think things ought to be.
Originally posted by seer View PostThere is no logical way to judge between the two opinions, you must therefore declare your own "fiat" by merely stating your personal preference.
Why you would somewhat arbitrarily decide that the same dynamic in morality is "not logical" is beyond me. You appear to have one tool in your tool box: relative/subjective morality is not sobjective/universal/eternal/absolute - so it's bad. It's not, IMO, a very good tool.Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-04-2018, 02:35 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostPerhaps. That depends entirely on the nature of that god. But, of course, wanting something to be so doesn't make it so.
No, you're not making an argument - you're just repeating the definition of "relative/subjective" morality. It's not an argument.
As for who am I to say he is wrong, I will say he is wrong if his moral code does not align with mine. He will do the same in reverse. I do have several avenues available to me for attempting to bring parity between us. If Starlight values the same things that I do (life, liberty, health, happiness, etc.), then I can try to show him how his reasoning from what he values to his moral conclusion is logically flawed. If he does not, then I would need to find a way to convince him to value those things. If neither of those approaches achieves parity (it may well be we will NOT agree on what is moral - that is normal for a subjective/relative moral framework), then we will fall back to the remaining options: isolate/separate, or contend - depending on the context.
We've been through this before - several times. You just keep ignoring the responses because they don't align with how you think things ought to be.
Seer - you have determined that not being able to arrive at a common agreement on a moral code is somehow "bad." How you determined this, I don't know. We don't agree on common laws, yet multiple countries share this planet. Indeed, multiple states share this country, and multiple counties share the state, and multiple localities share the county, and it appears to be reasonably functional.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd wishing it otherwise does not make it so either.
Originally posted by seer View PostYes Carp, I am repeating the obvious. You and Star can go back and forth for an eternity and you will never come to a resolution, and even if you did, it wouldn't matter because logically there is no right or wrong when it comes to moral questions - just preferences.
Originally posted by seer View PostYet most countries, through out history, have looked to divine sources for their moral inspiration. Our basic human rights in this country are grounded in theological principle.
You still have not made an argument, Seer, and (despite your name), you don't appear to see it.Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-04-2018, 03:32 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Thanks Carpedm for a particularly interesting discussion. It's given me a lot to think about.
I'm wondering if you're focusing overly much on the process of how people muddle together to arrive at social agreements on morality, that you're ignoring the extent to which such agreement is possible because they share values.
What a lot of modern research has found is that people do share a lot of values and needs. For example, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or the 24 cross-cultural virtues I posted earlier that have been observed in many different cultures, or the list I gave earlier from the cultural-anthropologist ("life, health, liberty, prosperity") all point to shared values. And we've seen the same thing with the UN Declaration of Human Rights, which reflects that internationally there is a very high level of agreement on what people do value.
I would ascribe the fact that we have such a high degree of shared values to three kinds of things:
1. Consciousness / sentience. I would suggest that every being in the universe that is conscious and intelligent is going to value some things like its life, liberty (and prosperity, which is basically increased liberty), happiness, having a sense of meaning.
2. Biological embodiment. We have biological needs that we value being met like food, shelter, excretion, health etc.
3. Herd evolution. We have innate drives to make friends, to seek connections, to value family, to find a life partner etc. We are a social species rather than a hermit one.
Our societies have huge levels of innate agreement in values because we all share those 3 properties and the values that flow out of them. Even before considering any shared cultural values that we might have with the people we are trying to form a social contract with, we are going to share those underlying cross-cultural values because they are fundamental to our existence. Though I don't have any quarrel with what you say about how in practice our communities muddle towards agreements. I wonder if you're overlooking too much the universal values that are shared by everyone. We could even reasonably expect aliens if we met them in future to have similar values (though if they lacked #2 and/or #3 then we might have some problems because we'd be working with greatly reduced shared values)."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThanks Carpedm for a particularly interesting discussion. It's given me a lot to think about.
I'm wondering if you're focusing overly much on the process of how people muddle together to arrive at social agreements on morality, that you're ignoring the extent to which such agreement is possible because they share values.
What a lot of modern research has found is that people do share a lot of values and needs. For example, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or the 24 cross-cultural virtues I posted earlier that have been observed in many different cultures, or the list I gave earlier from the cultural-anthropologist ("life, health, liberty, prosperity") all point to shared values. And we've seen the same thing with the UN Declaration of Human Rights, which reflects that internationally there is a very high level of agreement on what people do value.
I would ascribe the fact that we have such a high degree of shared values to three kinds of things:
1. Consciousness / sentience. I would suggest that every being in the universe that is conscious and intelligent is going to value some things like its life, liberty (and prosperity, which is basically increased liberty), happiness, having a sense of meaning.
2. Biological embodiment. We have biological needs that we value being met like food, shelter, excretion, health etc.
3. Herd evolution. We have innate drives to make friends, to seek connections, to value family, to find a life partner etc. We are a social species rather than a hermit one.
Our societies have huge levels of innate agreement in values because we all share those 3 properties and the values that flow out of them. Even before considering any shared cultural values that we might have with the people we are trying to form a social contract with, we are going to share those underlying cross-cultural values because they are fundamental to our existence. Though I don't have any quarrel with what you say about how in practice our communities muddle towards agreements. I wonder if you're overlooking too much the universal values that are shared by everyone. We could even reasonably expect aliens if we met them in future to have similar values (though if they lacked #2 and/or #3 then we might have some problems because we'd be working with greatly reduced shared values).
And, for now, I have to call it there. Perhaps I'll be able to return tomorrow - but right now I have to complete this job to fulfill a contract. Best to you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou and Star can go back and forth for an eternity and you will never come to a resolution
In all my years here at TWeb or in all the years of my life in general I can't really think of a time when I've seen two atheists in really strong and unresolvable disagreement about morality. In my experience, atheists tend to have really strong levels of agreement on moral issues, and if they differ with each other slightly on grey areas (e.g. what week of development to set the abortion cut-off at) are pretty forgiving of each other in terms of tolerating minor differences and listening to each other.
Whereas I have seen plenty of Christians, both in my own life and here at TWeb, in really strong and seemingly unresolvable disagreements with each other about all sorts of moral issues.
In my observation, it is almost always religious people, not non-religious people who cannot reach reasonable levels of agreement about moral issues. So I suggest you stop trying to project the failures of religion onto atheism."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow about the best interest of the tribe or the individual or the ruling elite? I mean really Jim, you are sounding like a moral realist everyday...
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell yes, in your world Carp there are no objectively true moral answers. The universe is ultimately unjust and all our moral musings are ultimately fruitless.Last edited by JimL; 03-05-2018, 09:01 AM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou avoided answering my question seer. Do you think that moral codes have nothing to do with the best interests of human beings? Again, the moral that underlies most all moral codes is that one ought to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Do you think there is no human purpose underlying that ought?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI believe that you continuously confuse objective with absolute seer. A moral, a rule of behavior, can be objectively true, do to it's effect to the good of humanity, and yet not be absolute in the sense that it has some kind of reality in and of itself. The universe is not a being, it is neither just nor unjust. Justice is left up to us to figure out.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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