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Morality or Obedience?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Yes Jim, there are a number of things I would do to make money that would not be lawful. Let me give you an example. I knew a older fellow back in the 80s (he is long dead) who used to fence high end stolen products. He was never violent, that I knew of, he used his profits to send his three kids to very good colleges, they all did well in life. He was never arrested, was a loving father and husband - when he died he left his family a nice chunk of change and prime Connecticut property. Could I do that - yes. I mean as an atheist, what would you tell this man?
    You are avoiding my specific question seer. Is there some reason you are avoiding answering to the specifics I asked of you? I'll ask again; If you knew there were no god, would you rape women, would you sell killer drugs to children, would you rob, or murder and rob, every last penny from an elderly widow? You've told me things that you would do, so can you tell me if you would do these things as well?
    Last edited by JimL; 10-26-2017, 12:50 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      You are avoiding my specific question seer. Is there some reason you are avoiding answering to the specifics I asked of you? I'll ask again; If you knew there were no god, would you rape women, would you sell killer drugs to children, would you rob, or murder and rob, every last penny from an elderly widow? You've told me things that you would do, so can you tell me if you would do these things as well?
      No Jim, your question does not make sense. It doesn't matter which behaviors I may decide to do if I wasn't a Christian, it only matters that there are behaviors that I would not do as a Christian. You asked "if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?" My answer was yes, there are SOME MORALS I would no longer follow.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #33
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        You are avoiding my specific question seer. Is there some reason you are avoiding answering to the specifics I asked of you? I'll ask again; If you knew there were no god, would you rape women, would you sell killer drugs to children, would you rob, or murder and rob, every last penny from an elderly widow? You've told me things that you would do, so can you tell me if you would do these things as well?
        I wouldn't. But I was raised in an environment where such things were seen as evil. What if you had been raised in an environment where it was considered okay to do what you wanted to women? Would you somehow be counter-cultural and say that raping women is wrong if you were taught your whole life that it was okay because that culture viewed females as subhuman or something? I can play this game too. Just substitute cultural mores for God. You are part nature, part nurture. So, if you had evil parents and grew up in an evil culture, chances are, said person would grow up to be evil by our standards.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          No Jim, your question does not make sense. It doesn't matter which behaviors I may decide to do if I wasn't a Christian, it only matters that there are behaviors that I would not do as a Christian. You asked "if God did not exist would you cease to live according to the morals that you now hold to?" My answer was yes, there are SOME MORALS I would no longer follow.
          Yes, your answer was that there are some morals that you would no longer hold to, and you were willing to name those things, but you are not willing to say whether or not you would no longer hold to all of your morals such as whether you would violently rape women, sell dangerous drugs to children, rob, or murder and rob, every penny from and elderly widow. Why can't you say whether or not you would do those things if there were no god?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            I wouldn't. But I was raised in an environment where such things were seen as evil. What if you had been raised in an environment where it was considered okay to do what you wanted to women? Would you somehow be counter-cultural and say that raping women is wrong if you were taught your whole life that it was okay because that culture viewed females as subhuman or something? I can play this game too. Just substitute cultural mores for God. You are part nature, part nurture. So, if you had evil parents and grew up in an evil culture, chances are, said person would grow up to be evil by our standards.
            You're making my point CBW.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              You're making my point CBW.
              I'm saying that we don't have internal moral standards according to your worldview, Jim. According to naturalism, we are merely conditioned by genetics and our environment and are no better than any other mammal. What will this all matter in a trillion years in that worldview? Sounds pretty hopeless to me. But I have hope in Jesus! And I, along with the rest of The Church(everyone who has trusted God for salvation), will be with Him in a renovated universe. And we will live happily ever after! The end! Humanism ends like a cosmic horror story as the stars slowly die out and the universe gets colder and colder until all that is left are small bits of subatomic particles. Heat death isn't a happy ending.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Yes, your answer was that there are some morals that you would no longer hold to, and you were willing to name those things, but you are not willing to say whether or not you would no longer hold to all of your morals such as whether you would violently rape women, sell dangerous drugs to children, rob, or murder and rob, every penny from and elderly widow. Why can't you say whether or not you would do those things if there were no god?
                Jim, I don't have a problem with robbing, selling dope to adults, no big deal. The rest I would personally still find wrong. And they expose you to a lot of jail time.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Jim, I don't have a problem with robbing, selling dope to adults, no big deal. The rest I would personally still find wrong. And they expose you to a lot of jail time.
                  So, you wouldn't necessarily attribute your morality to god then? You would still have a sense of right and wrong even if you knew there were no god?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    So, you wouldn't necessarily attribute your morality to god then? You would still have a sense of right and wrong even if you knew there were no god?
                    JimL, since we believe God gave us a conscience (even people who don't believe in him like YOU) you would have to prove that if God didn't exist that we would still exist and would still have a conscience.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      I'm saying that we don't have internal moral standards according to your worldview, Jim. According to naturalism, we are merely conditioned by genetics and our environment and are no better than any other mammal. What will this all matter in a trillion years in that worldview? Sounds pretty hopeless to me. But I have hope in Jesus! And I, along with the rest of The Church(everyone who has trusted God for salvation), will be with Him in a renovated universe. And we will live happily ever after! The end! Humanism ends like a cosmic horror story as the stars slowly die out and the universe gets colder and colder until all that is left are small bits of subatomic particles. Heat death isn't a happy ending.
                      Yes, I understand all of that wanting to live joyously for ever and ever stuff. But that is not what we were discussing. The question has only to do with the nature of morality.

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                      • #41
                        I suspect that were I not a Christian, I'd be the vaguely obedient, somewhat milquetoast person that I am today, just with some different opinions. I know a lot of jerks, who if they were Christians, they'd be jerk Christians, and I know a lot of morally upstanding Christians, who, were they not Christians, would be morally upstanding people. I think personality accounts for a lot of our behavior--redeemed or not.
                        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                        Save me, save me"

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                          I suspect that were I not a Christian, I'd be the vaguely obedient, somewhat milquetoast person that I am today, just with some different opinions. I know a lot of jerks, who if they were Christians, they'd be jerk Christians, and I know a lot of morally upstanding Christians, who, were they not Christians, would be morally upstanding people. I think personality accounts for a lot of our behavior--redeemed or not.
                          True, but the Holy Spirit does change those chosen.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            True, but the Holy Spirit does change those chosen.
                            Yup. I was picking a few things up at Walmart today when I noticed a wallet laying on the floor near the deli department. 30 years ago I would have likely pocketed the cash in it and then turned it into customer service figuring the owner was lucky to get his credit cards and ID back. Now I didn't even look to see if there was any cash but pulled out the driver's license (the owner was a 79 year old man) and scoured the store looking for him so that I could make sure he got everything back. After 10 minutes I resigned myself to turning it over to customer service only for both of us to walk in there virtually together (he was about half a dozen steps behind me). When I saw him I handed it to him and when he offered me a reward I simply told him to donate it to his church instead. The look on his face made my day.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                            • #44
                              Just caught a serious typo. Let's try it again.

                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Of course the atheist always resorts to espousing Christian virtues like altruism and benevolence, but that doesn't answer the question of why we shouldn't seek to live like, say, a Pablo Escabor, or a Hillary Clinton
                              But it does answer the question -- unless you're claiming that those Christian virtues have no rational defense. Is that a position you really want to defend?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                JimL, since we believe God gave us a conscience (even people who don't believe in him like YOU) you would have to prove that if God didn't exist that we would still exist and would still have a conscience.
                                A conscience isn't a thing, it isn't an organ that can be given to you Sparko, a conscience is nurtured, it develops. Infants don't have a conscience.

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