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Morality or Obedience?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    So, you wouldn't necessarily attribute your morality to god then? You would still have a sense of right and wrong even if you knew there were no god?
    Jim, I wouldn't do some wicked things because of my faith period. And my moral sense has a lot to do with being raised in a largely Christian culture, in a largely Catholic neighborhood and family.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
      But it does answer the question -- unless you're claiming that those Christian virtues have no rational defense. Is that a position you really want to defend?
      Sure, altruism and benevolence can be rationally defended if atheism is true, but that's not the point. The point is that selfishness and cruelty can also be rationally defended if atheism is true.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Sure, altruism and benevolence can be rationally defended if atheism is true, but that's not the point. The point is that selfishness and cruelty can also be rationally defended if atheism is true.
        If that is the case, then atheism is irrelevant to their defense, and therefore God's existence is irrelevant to their defense.

        But it also depends on what you are prepared to call a rational defense. For any position on any subject, those who defend it will claim to be presenting a rational defense. That doesn't mean they are actually being rational in their thinking. When two people present apparently logical arguments for contrary conclusions, we can be very sure that at least one of them is making a mistake in their reasoning.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by guacamole View Post
          milquetoast person that I am today
          You going to do anything about this?
          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            If that is the case, then atheism is irrelevant to their defense, and therefore God's existence is irrelevant to their defense.

            But it also depends on what you are prepared to call a rational defense. For any position on any subject, those who defend it will claim to be presenting a rational defense. That doesn't mean they are actually being rational in their thinking. When two people present apparently logical arguments for contrary conclusions, we can be very sure that at least one of them is making a mistake in their reasoning.
            You missed the second half of my response: "The point is that selfishness and cruelty can also be rationally defended if atheism is true."

            In other words, there is no argument available to the atheist that begins with "Assuming atheism is true" and ends with "therefore, one ought to be moral," because literally any act can be rationally defended in an atheistic universe.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              In other words, there is no argument available to the atheist that begins with "Assuming atheism is true" and ends with "therefore, one ought to be moral," because literally any act can be rationally defended in an atheistic universe.
              Which means, as I stated, that atheism is irrelevant to any defense of one's behavior. That doesn't mean there can be no rational defense. I don't need either to affirm or to deny God's existence in order to know how to properly exercise my reason, and the proper exercise of reason does not produce the kind of moral nihilism that you seem to think it does.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                A conscience isn't a thing, it isn't an organ that can be given to you Sparko, a conscience is nurtured, it develops. Infants don't have a conscience.
                an infant doesn't really have a mind either. But it will one day. We all have consciences and they all inform us of right and wrong, so what's your point?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  You going to do anything about this?
                  Just about as soon as you work on your third grade reading level.
                  "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                  Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                  Save me, save me"

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    an infant doesn't really have a mind either. But it will one day. We all have consciences and they all inform us of right and wrong, so what's your point?
                    An infant has a nervous system, a brain, and a conscience is nothing more than info put into that brain which informs it of right and wrong. We're not born with a conscience!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      An infant has a nervous system, a brain, and a conscience is nothing more than info put into that brain which informs it of right and wrong. We're not born with a conscience!
                      I found that argument interesting. CNN did a report from a baby testing lab that claimed to show babies do have a sense of right and wrong.
                      http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/us/bab...360/index.html
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        An infant has a nervous system, a brain, and a conscience is nothing more than info put into that brain which informs it of right and wrong. We're not born with a conscience!
                        And yet we all have one. I never said we were born with one. I said God gave us all one. Just like he gave us a mind. It is innate in our nature. Unless something goes wrong and we are a sociopath or insane, etc, and then it is twisted.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          an infant doesn't really have a mind either. But it will one day. We all have consciences and they all inform us of right and wrong, so what's your point?
                          You can only say that because you do not have kids. Babies are individuals from birth. If that does not reveal a mind then no one has a mind.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                            Just about as soon as you work on your third grade reading level.
                            I reading good!!!

                            Meanwhile, you admit self to be coward. Sad!
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              If I suddenly became an atheist, I'm not sure how my behavior would change. On the whole, it probably wouldn't change substantially--or at least not obviously so. E.g., I wouldn't become a thief/murderer/rapist overnight. Certain of my "minor" behaviors would most definitely change, but probably not much in the way of big-ticket stuff. Most of all, my outlook on life would change. At a guess, I'd probably become pretty nihilistic about most things.

                              Hard to say, though.
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                                Which means, as I stated, that atheism is irrelevant to any defense of one's behavior. That doesn't mean there can be no rational defense. I don't need either to affirm or to deny God's existence in order to know how to properly exercise my reason, and the proper exercise of reason does not produce the kind of moral nihilism that you seem to think it does.
                                Reason in and of itself does not -- in fact can not -- lead to morality. It all depends on the premises you start with, and if you start with the premise that an ultimate moral law giver does not exist then every act becomes permissible. It's merely a question of pragmatism at that point.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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